Perfect Cigar Maturity

[Mel]

Talk about aging Cuban cigars is all ove the place but I would like to know is, how much is enough?

How can you know when a cigar has reached its prime?

How can you be sure that it will get any better at all(see recent talk about the HDM Pirimide EL)?

Is older always better?

Does a cigar over age?

Thanks all, Mel

[Ginseng]

» How can you know when a cigar has reached its prime?

» How can you be sure that it will get any better at all(see recent talk

» about the HDM Pirimide EL)?

» Is older always better?

» Does a cigar over age?

Excellent questions Mel. I can't wait to hear what people have to say on this subject. While I think agreement on the above questions is not likely, the discussion should be entertaining.

I would add one more question though.

Why do people buy aged cigars?

Wilkey

[The Privateer]

»

» I would add one more question though.

»

» Why do people buy aged cigars?

I have friends who attempt to buy and smoke only "aged" cigars. The general idea is that older=better, regardless of provenance, storage, or cigar characteristics. Unfortunately, the concept of "aged" seems debatable...I get people telling me that a particular cigar from 1999 or even 2001 is "aged". I'm sure many veterans would agree that 5 year-old cigars are "matured", and only cthose closer to 10 years would be rightly called "aged" or "vintage".

I admit to having fallen for the older=better schtick not too long ago, but recent experiences have taught me that the quality and storage matters more than box age per se. If all cigars were approached with the right mindset: i.e. a fresher cigar will display different (not worse) characteristics from an older one, then perhaps there wouldn't be such a scramble to pay premiums for stock that is barely aged, and that has suffered from poor storage.

That said, I will readily pay a premium for any "aged" cigars from vendors whose opinions I trust. Case in point: Upmann Regalias '94, ERDM Demi Tasse '85 etc.

[Mel]

I too have bought into the aged is better and been disapointed. I got a box of 96 Punch Punch through a friend and after smoking one I asked myself, what am I supposed to experience?

I will tell you all without a doubt that I have fresh RASS that are better than the aged Punch.

So if aged is not always better but different, which I accept and believe, does more age assure the difference likeable and if so is worth any money?

[Loki]

» Talk about aging Cuban cigars is all ove the place but I would like to know

» is, how much is enough?

»

» How can you know when a cigar has reached its prime?

» How can you be sure that it will get any better at all(see recent talk

» about the HDM Pirimide EL)?

» Is older always better?

» Does a cigar over age?

»

» Thanks all, Mel

Mel, Honestly I think its a crap shoot. Both of us have stated that 99% of the Habanos that we have smoked didn't suck. Yeah some were older than others, some were better than others and some were less expensive than others. I guess what I'm trying to say is no matter how old or young the stick may be, the bottom line is "Was I left satisfied when I was done smoking it".

[genevapics]

I just crawled back into the game in October 2005, so I have somewhat limited experience. That said, there is a thread here on this board that contains the following paraphrased post:

"Smoke what you like and like what you smoke." I believe this statement is applicable to the issue of aging. It really comes down to personal preferrance. If it tastes good/great to you than it is good/great, regardless of age. I cannot say this from personal experience, but I would assume all cuban cigars improve with some aging. How long one should age a certain marca/vitola is again, personal preferrance.

Also, consider this: each year produces a different tobacco crop; no one tabacco crop is the same. Therefore, 2002 Cohiba Robustos will probably require different aging requirements than 2005 Cohiba Robustos. So applying strict aging guidelines might not produce the desired results one is searching for in their cigars.

"Smoke what you like and like what you smoke." You don't know how much this statement hits home for me. Thank you to whoever wrote this.

[El Presidente]

quality and storage matters more than box age per se

You hit it on the head. The finest aged cigars are those that have been stored by yourself or by a vendor who has had them from inception (as opposed to purchased them third hand).

Mel if those 96 Punch Punch had spent more than 3 weeks out of humidification at any time in 10 years....they have had a deterioration/dissipation of oils and hence flavour.

[Ginseng]

Fabulous discussion. Please allow me to respond to a few notable points.

From Privateer's and Mel's posts

1. It seems to me that equating "age" with "quality" is commonly the result of an unexamined conception regarding habanos. I mean no insult by this. Rather, I'm simply suggesting that it seems to be more an unconsidered adoption of the un-personal "XXX is best" mindset. The questions that merit asking but that often are not asked could be ones such as the following:

* What does time do to cigars in general

* What does time do to XXX cigar in particular and do I like it?

* What factors affect how cigars change with time?

* How long am I willing to wait for the cigar to become "good"

* What specific conditions are conducive to the types of changes that I like?

* What is it about young cigars that I think changes for the better with time?

* Does it make sense to focus only on aged cigars? Why? What is it that I value in making this decision in general?

* Will I know if a cigar has aged too long and is in decline? What would I do with them?

Of course there are many others, but the point I'm trying to make is that those who unmindfully cleave to ideals of quality that are purported to be superior in such a general sense as to be meaningless, may be deluding themselves. More to the point, they could well be denying themselves a rich palette of satisfying experiences because of their adopted preconceptions.

Privateer and Mel seem to have achieved a certain thoughtfulness regarding this pastime that some never achieve. Perhaps these are the "Chardonnay Class" that Rob alluded to. "I've got $5,000, just send me your oldest stock!" Now there's a smoker upon whom otherwise well-appreciated sticks might be most heinously wasted. They are both despised and envied by fellow cigar enthusiasts and avoided by dealers of conscience.

2. The definition of "aged" is, of course, fluid. Some will hold that the horizon is 5 years while others may claim 25. This is not important in the least as long as each has mindfully, and consciously made this decision with due consideration and understanding. The reason that this difference means nothing at all (at least in terms of the smoking and enjoyment of cigars) is that the primary considerations which enable one to attain the far horizons has nothing to do with the hobby but have everything to do with means and resources.

From genevapics' post

1. I would add that meaningful personal preference can only develop from mindful observation, attention and consideration of our experiences and their effects on us. Part of this must, in my opinion, also include an awareness and appreciation of the intricacies of the art and industry reaching back to the production. Without an idea of what's happening on the plantations and in the factories, the cigars become that much more like inscrutable "black boxes" while their aging becomes mysterious and undecipherable.

As for me, I don't have the resources, the patience or connections to seek out aged stock. And so my recourse is to buy modest amounts of stock and grow with them over time. I'm just at the beginning of my journey but I feel that the cigars that are with me, in the coolers and humidors that I've set up will be ever so satisfying in the years to come. For some reason, I just have this feeling that smoking a cigar that I've taken care of for 10 years would be more satisfying than any 10-year old cigar I could buy.

Wilkey

[shrink]

Wilkey wrote: For some reason, I just have this feeling that smoking a cigar that I've taken care of for 10 years would be more satisfying than any 10-year old cigar I could buy.

Wilkey, you're a friggin' genius. :-)

[Tampa1257]

I'll let you know next year when I open up a box of 1997 Bolivar Petit Coronas that have been in deep sleep for several years in my humidor how storage and proper temp and rh have affected them.

[harwellplant]

» I'll let you know next year when I open up a box of 1997 Bolivar Petit

» Coronas that have been in deep sleep for several years in my humidor how

» storage and proper temp and rh have affected them.

need a friend's opinion? lol.

[Mel]

»Privateer and Mel seem to have achieved a certain thoughtfulness regarding

» this pastime that some never achieve. Perhaps these are the "Chardonnay

» Class" that Rob alluded to. "I've got $5,000, just send me your oldest

» stock!" Now there's a smoker upon whom otherwise well-appreciated

» sticks might be most heinously wasted. They are both despised and envied

» by fellow cigar enthusiasts and avoided by dealers of conscience.

»

»

Please clarify this post. Have Privateer and I been slammed here? Are we the despised on this forum?

[Ginseng]

ot» »Privateer and Mel seem to have achieved a certain thoughtfulness

» regarding

» » this pastime that some never achieve. Perhaps these are the "Chardonnay

» » Class" that Rob alluded to. "I've got $5,000, just send me your

» oldest

» » stock!" Now there's a smoker upon whom otherwise well-appreciated

» » sticks might be most heinously wasted. They are both despised and

» envied

» » by fellow cigar enthusiasts and avoided by dealers of conscience.

» »

» »

»

» Please clarify this post. Have Privateer and I been slammed here? Are we

» the despised on this forum?

Absolutely not. If that is how this was interpreted I most emphatically apologize. I was speaking only of those who have never achieved the thoughtfulness that you two obviously have. It's clear now that the respect I have for your ideas and comments on this board did not come across properly at all and so again, I apologize.

It seems that in mixing the admiration I held for you two along with the comment about the "Chardonnay Class" that Rob mentioned the distinction between the two was muddled.

I know one of these "CC" fellows and though he is wealthy and has standing orders at the local shop for every limited release that comes through, it is clear that he knows the cost but not the value of anything he smokes. In this sense, some wonderful sticks are "wasted."

I despise no one on this board nor would I consider anyone I've met here in the "CC" class. That we have all found our ways here and found some measure of comradeship I think is a testament to the fact that we are not among the despised.

My most profuse apologies for any misunderstandings that might have arisen from my post. I shall try to be more precise and terse in the future.

Wilkey

[Mel]

Thank you Sir Gensing

I do love to aggrivate and and have a goog time but hate to cause real trouble. Imagine my horror when I misread your post, I did think we were on the same page.

My whole problem with this cigar aging is that I have seen few absolutes. I have a few good aged cigars, which I did have to buy since I have only been at this for a short time, and some great young sticks. I do enjoy the complexity of the issue though.

Thank you for your nice and timely clarification. You are a gentleman and I appreciate your contributions to the Forum.

Relieved, Mel.

[1f1fan]

»I'm just at the beginning of my journey but I

» feel that the cigars that are with me, in the coolers and humidors that

» I've set up will be ever so satisfying in the years to come. For some

» reason, I just have this feeling that smoking a cigar that I've taken care

» of for 10 years would be more satisfying than any 10-year old cigar I could

» buy.

»

» Wilkey

Thats what it's all about right there.

[Mel]

I have to admit that I like smoking them more than watching them at the bottom of the box. All of this talk about the new stuff smoking great right oput of the box suits me just fine.

At lunch I went to the house and did reinspect those older Punch and they do look awful dry. Senor Dictator you could be right they look devoid of oils.

I have decided that a cigar is ready to smoke---when I light it.;-)

[Ginseng]

» I have decided that a cigar is ready to smoke---when I light it.;-)

What an absolutely wonderful perspective! Carpe diem habanos. :-D

Wilkey

[harwellplant]

its a good thing you ask such OBJECTIVE questions, doc. lmao.

[El Presidente]

Mel...just to be clear...you are despised :-D

[CIGARHead]

» I have to admit that I like smoking them more than watching them at the

» bottom of the box. All of this talk about the new stuff smoking great

» right oput of the box suits me just fine.

»

» At lunch I went to the house and did reinspect those older Punch and they

» do look awful dry. Senor Dictator you could be right they look devoid of

» oils.

»

» I have decided that a cigar is ready to smoke---when I light it.;-)

Im with ya Mel. I do have some aged smokes, most smoke great..one box smells like dirty wet shoes - definite sign of poor storage. I plan on aging my cigars myself. Unless someone like Prez, who I consider to be top notch and a truth teller (with the exception of fish stories), would I buy another aged box of cigars..within reason. Truth be told i love most of my young smokes.

[Brit]

To quote a friend:

5 year old smoke = aged.

10 year old smoke = vintage

20 year old smoke = GIMME THAT!

If properly stored, I haven't met a pre-03 Habanos that didn't improve with at least 5 years. In my opinion, most get markedly better (to my taste) after that.

[Mel]

» Mel...just to be clear...you are despised :-D

What an honor to be raped by you, oh great one.

And as to objective questions, nothing is more subjective than this one eh?

Dare anyone answer this...? How can you tell if a cigar is at the peak, ie. will three more months cause decline? I say it can not be done. If the last statement is true then no accurate statements can be made about "Perfect Cigar Maturity".

Yes Tampa if I am ignored I will go off in self pity and mutter the day away.

[Brit]

» »»

» Dare anyone answer this...? How can you tell if a cigar is at the peak,

» ie. will three more months cause decline? I say it can not be done. If the

» last statement is true then no accurate statements can be made about

» "Perfect Cigar Maturity".

Mel, "Perfection" is a pretty high standard, so I agree with you that it's impossible to make accurate statements about "Perfect Cigar Maturity." That being said, I think it's relatively easy (with practice) to determine whether a Habanos will benefit from aging. The keys, imo, are whether there are still tanins evident in the mid-palate, making the cigar harsher and more "closed down" that it could be, and the quality of the finish (or aftertaste). If the finish is short and "dies," the cigar needs more time. If it is open and expansive, lasting for up to a minute, then it is starting to hit its prime.

In my experience, it's not so much a matter of three months as it is of three (or more) years. Fine Habanos, like fine wines, have a plateau of maturity that can last for several years, after which they will tail off slowly (although some do crash more quickly than others).

As a general rule, I don't think there are many pre-03 Habanos that will not benefit significantly from 5-8 years of aging (if properly stored). After that, it depends on the brand and vitola. Some vitolas (within the same marque even) age very differently. Take the Punch RS #12, for example. In my experience, it doesn't begin to open up and show its potential before at least 8 years, and 10 or more is preferable. By contrast, the RS #11 is approachable and reveals its breed after about 5 or 6 years. How long will these cigars hold? Again, if properly stored--I believe for decades. Last year, thanks to a very generous friend, I smoked a Don Cándido that was 50 years old--unquestionably the best cigar I've ever smoked. It showed wonderful signs of age, but none of fatigue, and was incredibly complex, really beyond words. Hard to say if this cigar was "perfect," but just about as close as it gets in this world.

Best,

Brit

[The Privateer]

» If the finish is short and "dies," the cigar

» needs more time. If it is open and expansive, lasting for up to a minute,

» then it is starting to hit its prime.

»

Thanks for elucidating that! I have noticed this trait with the few truly aged cigars I've tried...the finish goes on and on and never seems to end.