Some questions for you guys 🤔

[Li Bai]

Hi everyone, how are you today?

I have some questions for you about your buying habits but I'll give you some context first to help you understand so bear with me 😉

I've been wandering around here for years until I decided to join a few months ago. Prior to that, I've also been an active member of the biggest cigar forum in the French language where I've spent countless hours learning about our shared passion and especially CCs.

I've been smoking for more than 20 years but really began digging deep when I starting buying Cubans by the box, five or six years ago. In those early days I bought a few boxes online from trusted Switzerland-based retailers but as my experience and knowledge grew I stopped doing that to buy directly from cigar shops (in Paris mostly). I've learned to smell and touch them and to sample boxes before acquiring any, thanks to great friends I made along the way.

I've never "learned" to shop online and never really cared to, since I trust my senses more and also because it has become virtually impossible to buy this way in France nowadays.

This is a totally different game and I have so many questions for you! For example, I never chased box codes, factories and I don't chase particular years of production either (it would be pointless anyway as you can't find anything older than 2022 in shops here), I buy what my eyes, nose and fingers tell me to and tbh it worked pretty well for me, until the shortages...

Of course buying online implies you can't sample boxes so you've got to rely on outstanding vendors like our gracious host but are you also always chasing specific factories? 

Would you not buy a box you're looking for because it wasn't from a major factory?

Do you fully rely on other members' opinions regarding years of production/factory code?

Both this great forum and the French one share the same passion and similar content on many topics but it differs in some ways too, REs and LEs aren't so loved there and box codes are never mentioned in reviews for example. Anyway sorry for this never-ending post but be sure that I love it here and I'm looking forward to reading your takes on these matters 👍

 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

With the online retailers I have a relationship with, I ask what's their best vitola in the size I want & go with that. Every box should be inspected at a minimum. Some times it's been even more general "what's smoking well you currently have?" I'll take it.

 

[Marco_011t556]

Of course buying online implies you can't sample boxes so you've got to rely on outstanding vendors like our gracious host but are you also always chasing specific factories? 

Trust the vendor..they are more experienced than myself.

Would you not buy a box you're looking for because it wasn't from a major factory?

Only if I got choices...for sure the "mother/major “ factory looks better.

Do you fully rely on other members' opinions regarding years of production/factory codes?

Frankly...I don't see much different of the flavour, rolling techniques.

[Wookie]

I too discovered/joined FOH years after I had been purchasing from a couple trusted Swiss vendors. (Always trepidation in this "hobby" when meeting new vendors-- It didn't seem to make sense to buy cigars from 15 time zones away.) In any case, I started buying from FOH in 2017. After Cuban supplies dried up, so did the grey market guys. Fortunately, I came to trust FOH more than anybody else and Rob is well-supplied. You cannot go wrong with FOH and no need to fear. 

[Li Bai]

5 hours ago, Wookie said:

Fortunately, I came to trust FOH more than anybody else and Rob is well-supplied. You cannot go wrong with FOH and no need to fear.

I came to the same conclusion and it's not fear that stops me, our customs are so annoying that even our host doesn't ship to France 🥲

PS: I hope this little talk about shipping isn't against the forum rules but if it is, moderators feel free to erase this post of course 👍

[VeguerosMAN]

I never really cared for box codes and dates personally. Also I never aged my cigars (my philosophy is that when you have them smoke them).  I don't have any CCs at the moment (patiently waiting for the price to come back down to earth). I usually buy singles at local shops or buy 5 pack deals online. 

[Jerryvonkramer]

The only online vendor I trust is Rob, but I also try to support my local LCDH by buying single sticks. The owner of that shop is very well known in the cigar world is extremely knowledgable and is great at recommending stuff. I think about 90% of everything I've learned about cigars though came from this board and watching Rob and Ken videos. 

[MagicalBikeRide]

Pre 2020, I bought almost all of my sticks at a single B&M retailer in Dublin. I’d ask what’s smoking well, try a couple singles and if I liked them, come back and buy the rest of the box. I rarely bought a box of something that I hadn’t yet sampled from. Consequently - I never really thought about box code.

In 2020, I actually bought very few cigars.

In 2021, I purchased from a single online retailer and haven’t looked back or trialled elsewhere. If I have the choice of two factories, I would pick the mother factory, but that scenario almost never arises. A provincial code doesn't stop me - feel like you just play your cards and take your chances. I still buy singles from local B&M but I almost never ask for the box code. I’m happy enough to pop in for a chat and see what’s smoking well. After shopping online, I can’t bring myself to spend the money required to buy a box here - we’ve now also got plain packaging, so can’t take home the box or cabinet for storing the sticks (almost as big a drawback as the taxes). 

[JohnS]

So many great questions there, @Li Bai! In essence, we could sum them all up by asking the following question...exactly how did we collectively get to this point in our cigar journey on FoH?

Firstly, the habit you speak of that values the need to touch and smell cigars prior to purchase comes from the days prior to the internet when we had dedicated 'brick and mortar' shops and we trusted the vendor's judgement on what was a good box. In fact, you would read the very same things mentioned in Zino Davidoff's classic book, first published in 1967, 'The Connoisseur’s Book of the Cigar'.

In regard to our forum, the practice of advocating 'hot' box codes comes from our host who would investigate incoming stock weekly and make judgements on what was the best regular production product at the time. For our older members, I could quote you the fervour surrounding cigars such as the POU Jun 13 Romeo y Julieta Exhibicion No.4, the early '18 releases of the Quai d'Orsay Nos. 50 and 54, the TOS late '15 and early '16 Diplomaticos No.2 or the LUB '14 H.Upmann No.2. They were indeed good times!

So what happened? In a word, the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent inflationary pressure on the Cuban economy that caused a mass migration out of the country led to our current crisis with supply in the Cuban cigar industry. As a result, this has meant that box codes aren't as relevant as they once were but we still talk in general terms about vitolas that are smoking well. For example, the Partagas Serie D No.4 and Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure No.2 would qualify as cigars that has been generally smoking well, post-2020.

There's more we could discuss on this matter to greater clarify our cigar culture, but time is pressing on my end, and I will return to this thread later. Things such as the influence of English cigar culture in the late 19th/early to mid 20th century, its relationship to Hong Kong cigar culture in the 20th century, the cigar boom in the USA in the early to mid-1990s and the relationship between maturation of wine and its influence on maturing Cuban cigars.

[Li Bai]

Thank you all for helping me clear things up ! Yes, i guess I'm an old school aficionado @JohnS 😅 

All your answers make sense, well except @VeguerosMAN's maybe, unfortunately waiting for CCs prices to drop is a bit delusional, no offense but it's never happened before as @El Presidente already stated and it very likely never will.

This is a whole different game and I can see the game has changed big time again for you guys since the last few years, not so much for me, I just purchase less by force of circumstances 🥲

I'm still trying to learn as much as possible and I feel like I'm in the perfect place for it so...Another thing...

I've had many cigars from 2000 to 2010, Monte Especiales, Party 898, 06' Bolivar Libertador... and some HDM DC and Epicure n°1, LGC Md'O n°4, RA Gigantes and Ramonitas even older than that and enjoyed every single one of them but... I haven't had them when they were fresh, or at 1, 2, 5 or 10 years of age and therefore I can't know from my own experience if they've improved or lost something along the way so I decided not to seek vintage cigars and do my own experiments but of course, it takes a lot of time and patience.

Without any judgement and if it's the case, why do you purchase vintage cigars (and spend big bucks doing so) and have you ever been disappointed? Have you ever been frustrated like me smoking vintage cigars just because you wished you had smoked it fresh to compare?

Another big question I have is about the sick period. I understand it is vastly due to the fact that torcedores moisten the leaves in order to roll the cigars and the resulting humidity leads to an extra fermentation that lasts from a few months to a few years. Is  this correct or am I mistaken ? If this is right, how come fresh cigars from the last few years smoke so well despite being supposedly in their sick period? 

I know we all agree that something has changed but I'm really curious as to why 🤔

[Uwiik]

On 5/22/2024 at 6:10 PM, Li Bai said:

All your answers make sense, well except @VeguerosMAN's maybe, unfortunately waiting for CCs prices to drop is a bit delusional, no offense but it's never happened before as @El Presidente already stated and it very likely never will.

I second this, just look at the market for luxury watches. Nobody buys these watches nowadays except for the purpose of money laundry, the few 0.25% percenter truly rich people or Chinese mainlanders. Market is truly flooded with Richard Mille, Patek, AP and Rolex...there is nothing rare of special about these watches anymore as long as you have the money but prices stays super inflated because the Chinese mainlanders just keep on hoarding these watches and I doubt that the Chinese will run out of money in my lifetime, plus the needs for politicians to money launder will always be there. There's nothing easier than buying and selling Richard Mille to money launderers tens of millions of dollars, just claim capital gains and pay the tax...voila, legal money (for the next campaign 😝).

As for @Li Bai's concern, my $0.1 opinion, as I am still very very new in the Cuban Cigar world, but I quickly found out that I have to be really careful when buying pre-2020 sticks blind because of too many bad rolls, but I can buy any 2021-2023 boxes now blind. Now I stopped chasing older boxes and embrace newer post-2020 boxes.

[JohnS]

To add further to my post from mid-week above, the idea of maturing Habanos cigars existed in the 20th century in long-term historical markets in Europe. However, in the USA there was a large cigar manufacturing industry in the late 19th century/early 20th century which only abated in significance due to the prohibition of alcohol sales in the 1920s and the Great Depression in the 1930s. The market recovered but it was not like the European market. For example, 'Clear Havanas' and cigar with green candela wrappers were popular for a time. The Cuban Revolution and subsequent US embargo against importation of Cuban products changed all that, of course.

After the 1960s, the US market looked to places like Jamaica to supply their cigars. It was much later that Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic emerged as market leaders in supply of cigars in the US market. So the culture of maturation of one's cigars didn't exist in the US market. Things changed with the US cigar boom that occured from 1992 to 1996. The greater majority of industry publications credit that boom to the publication of Cigar Aficionado magazine in 1992. I wonder though if the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 90s, which led to great economic difficulties for Cuba, forced their hand to find a way into new markets? Certainly, Cigar Aficionado did promote Cuban cigars from its outset, after all, the famous interview by founder, editor and publisher Marvin R.Shanken with Fidel Castro from 1994 is re-visited in the latest May/June 2024 issue of the magazine and Francisco Padron, the director of Cubatabaco at the time, was interviewed in 1993 and 1994. So, with this 'cigar boom' came more Habanos cigars into the US market which were blended differently to modern Habanos cigars. The idea of the 'sick period' gained wider acknowledgement with the publication of Min Ron Nee's, 'An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars' in 2003 but with the 50% acquisition of Habanos S.A by Altidis in 2000 came a re-structure of the Cuban cigar industry which ultimately led to the discontinuation of lines that had similar vitolas, poor-selling cigars and general change in blend which allowed Habanos cigars to smoked much, much younger in their maturation, thus rendering the 'sick period' antiquated.

Min Ron Nee's reference book also promoted the idea of aging Habanos cigars, as he wrote extensively of his experience of smoking cigars at different points of their development. Now this habit no doubt came out of Hong Kong cigar culture. When Habanos cigars were blended differently and were more 'potent' in their youth in the past, the idea of aging cigars was quite different to what it is nowadays. In the past, you could get significant changes via aging; these days it's possible to find some Habanos cigars that show little sign of change after years of rest. Nevertheless, the question of aging remains the same; it's dependent on the tastes of the individual cigar enthusiast and is subjective. Yes, aged Habanos cigars carry a premium in markets, but that comes from the investment of time, they're not necessarily better or worse than their younger counterparts when smoked as that judgement is relevant to the consumer.

I could make a case in point to age certain cigars to appreciate their development, but their appreciation is valued more when the individual cigar enthusiast ages their own stock and develops preferences either way for themselves.

[Li Bai]

Thank you @JohnS for clearing things up !

So if I may sum up, the disappearing of that sick period would be linked to changes in blends ? I was pretty much aware of the details you gave me but I still have a hard time understanding this point specifically.

Where does that sick period come (came?) from ?

[JohnS]

It comes from a time prior to 2001 when Habanos cigars were blended differently and benefited from a period of rest longer than what we experience now. The change in production method has never been substantiated but it is strongly believed amongst the Habanos cigar community. You can find further information on the topic below:

If one were to search our forum, they'd find references to the 'sick period' that were more pertinent in the mid to late-2000s. It's not something that is really part of our cigar culture nowadays, that I can assure you. If you'd like to read more about the topic there are some interesting threads on the matter below:

After reading that @Li Bai, you'll find different points of view as aging one's own cigars will likely do that...it's a subjective area, as I've mentioned previously. Since the idea of the 'sick period' is related to the habit of aging, have a read of the thread below, when you get a chance, and you'll appreciate the differing responses.

[Li Bai]

Thanks a lot @JohnS ! I had gone through some of those threads but now I've read them all 👍

Very interesting indeed ! If the "sick period" was related to torcedores moistening the leaves in order to roll just like MRN stated, then young cigars would still have to go through it 🤔

It might have been a thing at the time, that I can't figure out by myself now but too many long time aficionados talk about that fact to just ignore it...

Anyway thanks again to all who contributed to those threads, I was looking for an answer just for my own curiosity and I got it 👍