Now what is wrong with this photo?

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Keep in mind all three carried the 9999 microprint affliction.  I would lay a lazy $100 that the size of the bar code and the numbers font is the same on all 9999 afflicted boxes. It is something that we will compare going forward. 

The Exquisitos came in from PCC over the past 2 weeks. The Siglo II a few weeks prior to that. The cigars are perfect.

I have never seen this many 9999 affected boxes. It was only a few months back that a mastercase of CORO all with 9999. 

You get a sense that it is all continuing to fall apart. 

PM’ed you.

[Lamboinee]

Do I understand correctly....

These barcodes/serial numbers have inconsistencies and cannot be verified as being consistent with official "policy". However, they are still genuine? 

It is concerning to think that I cannot rely on the serial numbers and/or printing consistency. Not only would I be unable to verify authenticity....but I could also pass up on a legit cigar. 

We're serial numbers/bar codes part of the issue with that recent batch of fake cohiba robs from the online retailer?

[El Presidente]

26 minutes ago, Lamboinee said:

Do I understand correctly....

These barcodes/serial numbers have inconsistencies and cannot be verified as being consistent with official "policy". However, they are still genuine? 

It is concerning to think that I cannot rely on the serial numbers and/or printing consistency. Not only would I be unable to verify authenticity....but I could also pass up on a legit cigar. 

We're serial numbers/bar codes part of the issue with that recent batch of fake cohiba robs from the online retailer?

This is a slightly separate issue.

9999 9999 9999 9999 microprint and their associated flow on template  anomalies are likely human error. 

There have just been a lot more. "human errors" of late.  Why? I can only suppose that things are dead set tough, few care, those who did care have left over the past 18 months to US or anywhere else. 

9999 + is straight incompetence 

 

 

[Lamboinee]

I guess I'll be going down a rabbit hole to learn how hard it is to print serial #'s like this. I assumed it was less complicated.  I think this is Cuban blockchain. 

[ATGroom]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:02 PM, El Presidente said:

Does anyone know the production process of the warranty seals? 

I certainly don't know - this is all pure speculation.

I'm guessing the green layer is done with a fancy printing plate that has holes in it that the microprint serial numbers can be dropped in. Presumably it's all automated and they have some way on that machine to say "okay, print me some seals numbered from 00005000000 to 00005100000."

Then the seals go to another machine where the holograms are put on. Then another machine after that that prints the UV layer.

Then they go to a machine more like a laserjet that does the barcodes and the serials. I guess that machine also has an ability to say "print numbers from 00005000000 to 00005100000 onto these seals." I think the variable gaps between the edge of the green and the top of the barcode is just a result of slightly off alignment when the stock is moved to this machine, and not anything inherently 'wrong.'

I'm guessing 99999999999 means "error" more than it means "default." Sometimes for whatever reason the software crashes and where it should increment the numbers it errors out and does 9s instead.

Highly doubtful the seals would be printed in Cuba. Possibly in Holland. The relationship with Vrijdag began around the time the new seals were introduced, and certainly it is within their capabilities. Or possibly there is another supplier in Europe or China.

In the HSA export warehouse when they are packing a mastercase they choose the cigar they are packing on a scanner, peel the seals off the sheet, scan them, and apply them to the boxes. The data from the scanner is what ends up in the verification database.

[Puros Y Vino]

Everything about the seals, serial#'s, etc needs an overhaul.  Every iteration of the seals has seen improvements by counterfeiters to match them.  They'll get it perfect soon enough, especially with the reasonable doubt of "Cuba being Cuba" as an excuse when things don't go right.  It doesn't help that the Verification site hardly works and when it does, you're limited to 5 queries / day.  Every query that is successful should basically register as a new record so that future queries are flagged for duplicates.  Maybe blockchain needs to be part of the solution?  Not sure.  As it stands, between UV lights, microprinting, holograms,custom fonts, etc, every little "error" is an open door for counterfeit materials to slip in.  They need to implement more measures that are difficult to reproduce.  Even more important than that, is the ability to be consistent with their QA and have the discipline to maintain, not only set the standards.  Boxes with 999999999999 here and there do not build confidence.  Especially given how they've taken pricing to new levels. 

[Fuzz]

32 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

I certainly don't know - this is all pure speculation.

I'm guessing the green layer is done with a fancy printing plate that has holes in it that the microprint serial numbers can be dropped in. Presumably it's all automated and they have some way on that machine to say "okay, print me some seals numbered from 00005000000 to 00005100000."

Then the seals go to another machine where the holograms are put on. Then another machine after that that prints the UV layer.

Then they go to a machine more like a laserjet that does the barcodes and the serials. I guess that machine also has an ability to say "print numbers from 00005000000 to 00005100000 onto these seals." I think the variable gaps between the edge of the green and the top of the barcode is just a result of slightly off alignment when the stock is moved to this machine, and not anything inherently 'wrong.'

I'm guessing 99999999999 means "error" more than it means "default." Sometimes for whatever reason the software crashes and where it should increment the numbers it errors out and does 9s instead.

Highly doubtful the seals would be printed in Cuba. Possibly in Holland. The relationship with Vrijdag began around the time the new seals were introduced, and certainly it is within their capabilities. Or possibly there is another supplier in Europe or China.

In the HSA export warehouse when they are packing a mastercase they choose the cigar they are packing on a scanner, peel the seals off the sheet, scan them, and apply them to the boxes. The data from the scanner is what ends up in the verification database.

I've seen print machines in China, it would definitely be automated. The layout would be done by computer with the space for the microprinted serial numbers filled in as an editable field. Just batch load the numbers and do the print run of multiple seals (eg 100 seals) on a large sheet or a roll.  Modern machines can apply a knife life to the sheet to make it easier to peel off the seal from the backing.

As for how the barcodes get matched to the cigar and loaded to the database, it would be easier to label all the boxes first and then scan and batch load into the system. Too fiddly to peel, scan and apply. Far easier to do it in one go when everything is all finished.

[Bigkahuna]

Once China gets all in with high quality fakes (and appears they have) its game over. They will perfect the craft until it’s impossible to tell without smoking one. This is a plague. 

[Silverstix]

Cuba's inconsistency is probably their best anti-counterfeit deterrent!  How do the counterfeiters know what to copy? 😁

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I'm guessing the green layer is done with a fancy printing plate that has holes in it that the microprint serial numbers can be dropped in.

Like Fuzz says, it’s all done digital today. You can keep parts variable and adjust sequentially. Fairly easy to do today.

4 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I think the variable gaps between the edge of the green and the top of the barcode is just a result of slightly off alignment when the stock is moved to this machine, and not anything inherently 'wrong.'

I’d not concur here, Alex. As per today’s standards in precision printing such an alignment or “feed” error is a no-no. Not a simple glitch. Won’t happen. A heavy misprint that were to be rejected (mind you, it’s the green bit that’s not aligned). And until today I haven’t seen such happen in the warranty seal.

What I could imagine is, that such misprints happen during machine setup, in test printing runs. Such could also explain the 12x9-default thingy.

[Cigar Surgeon]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:21 AM, El Presidente said:

Now what is wrong with this photo?

Kick it around 

Serial for '40525' scans as barcode 00053540520

Serial fuzzy mcfuzzypants at the bottom scans as barcode 00053540520

Eyeballing the top one it looks like the same barcode.

 

[ATGroom]

8 hours ago, Fuzz said:

I've seen print machines in China, it would definitely be automated. The layout would be done by computer with the space for the microprinted serial numbers filled in as an editable field.

 

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

I’d not concur here, Alex. As per today’s standards in precision printing such an alignment or “feed” error is a no-no. Not a simple glitch. Won’t happen. A heavy misprint that were to be rejected (mind you, it’s the green bit that’s not aligned). And until today I haven’t seen such happen in the warranty seal.

 

The interesting thing is that the 99999999 microprint doesn't also result in a 99999999 barcode. It should all be done by the same device as in Fuzz's picture, but in that case it's strange that only one part of the process has the error. That's what makes me suggest that there might be some kind of manual step between green ink and barcode where the stock is loaded into another device.

[El Presidente]

7 hours ago, ATGroom said:

The interesting thing is that the 99999999 microprint doesn't also result in a 99999999 barcode. It should all be done by the same device as in Fuzz's picture, but in that case it's strange that only one part of the process has the error. That's what makes me suggest that there might be some kind of manual step between green ink and barcode where the stock is loaded into another device.

That is my guess as well. You set the serial number on one input/barcode template. You set the same serial number on the second input /warranty seal. You press start. 

It shouldn't be too hard, should it? 

[Fuzz]

I would probably say it is a field error. Error code is 99999999 if it doesn't align or something.

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, Fuzz said:

I would probably say it is a field error. Error code is 99999999 if it doesn't align or something.

Interesting. 

Surely if it blew an error code it wouldn't start the run?

[Fuzz]

Not necessarily. Depends on how the program works. It could be that the 2 fields are independently adjusted. Your right in saying that the code fields should be a single entry per seal, unless their are multiple fields on the seal that require changes.

I mean, technically if the printer has barcode functionality, just entering the number should allow it to print the barcode without having to manually add the artwork.

Maybe they need to tick fields in the program and some got missed, resulting in the error code? Would be very counter-intuitive and antiquated, but I've heard worse.

 

7 hours ago, ATGroom said:

The interesting thing is that the 99999999 microprint doesn't also result in a 99999999 barcode. It should all be done by the same device as in Fuzz's picture, but in that case it's strange that only one part of the process has the error. That's what makes me suggest that there might be some kind of manual step between green ink and barcode where the stock is loaded into another device.

If the sheets are loaded into another printer, that would account for it, and also the spacing errors. But those machines are old tech. I could not see a flexo or an offset printing machine doing that kind of detail clearly.

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Even more important than that, is the ability to be consistent with their QA and have the discipline to maintain, not only set the standards.  Boxes with 999999999999 here and there do not build confidence.  Especially given how they've taken pricing to new levels.

Wholeheartedly agree! It shouldn’t and it cannot be a matter of interpretation. A 9999-box is a reason to reject - has to be rejected. For the sake of us buyers, the retailers as well as eventually of HSA itself. Setting verification standards and anti-counterfeiting measures and then not caring about them is folly. Everything not up to standards is a serious reason to reject.

[Chas.Alpha]

8 minutes ago, Fugu said:Everything not up to standards is a serious reason to reject.

I think someone has already said it; anyone in Cuba that cares has already left.

[Fugu]

6 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I think someone has already said it; anyone in Cuba that cares has already left.

I think Cuba is only part of the equation...

[ha_banos]

They must do multiple runs. One run does the green print, another the barcodes. Thats 2 processes = lots of errors! 🤣

[rolaand]

I think there are probably two schools of thought in this process and that would give you a ton of insight into the codes. One is that there is a lot of automation and dependency built into the process. The other is that there are disparate systems that produce the different components and there is verification during QA (assuming QA exists). A third, more conspiratorial, take is that they are transitioning from a more QA heavy system to a more automated system due to lack of resources( e.g., personnel) and we are in the growing pain phase.

[jakebarnes]

7 hours ago, rolaand said:

I think there are probably two schools of thought in this process and that would give you a ton of insight into the codes. One is that there is a lot of automation and dependency built into the process. The other is that there are disparate systems that produce the different components and there is verification during QA (assuming QA exists). A third, more conspiratorial, take is that they are transitioning from a more QA heavy system to a more automated system due to lack of resources( e.g., personnel) and we are in the growing pain phase.

I kind of figured it was always the growing pain phase

[tjkoala]

@El Presidente: What else you you burn apart from cigars?

All of us: MORE CIGARSSSS