Aging Cubans at 62%?

[GuythePoolGuy]

Thanks PigFish!   That's exactly what I was wondering... the relationship between the two. 

[GuythePoolGuy]

That's the question OB1. What's the ideal PMC?   I assumed the green rectangle on the chart is ideal range but don't know. 

[PigFish]

Welcome to the forum you two.

Percent Moisture Content... Understand the term, but don't be distracted by it. It is not a shiny object! What I mean by this, is that there is a defined specific term that is used for what you seek, but the goal is not easily determined without sophisticated equipment. You therefore might never know the number, the number is the shiny object... It does not matter. Understanding the process matters. Getting great tasting cigars that are not damaged matters!

12 minutes ago, OB1 said:

Is there a PMC range one wants to hit, or some rule of thumb to follow for PMC?

This will be asked until the end of time and no expert can tell you what it is. For me, it is 70F and 60rH... in a sophisticated controlled humidor. But understand I am but one smoker with one opinion. There are plenty of savvy seasoned smokers, all that have opinions, and the only one that matters is yours!!!

If we govern by consensus, people tend to like the Cuban cigar dryer than that of cigars from other regions. As the Cuban cigar is trending to be less filled, perhaps that will change. Only time will tell. I like the taste of 'dryer' tobacco but it might not suit you or others.

Lets take a simple Gaussian (bell curve). The fact is that there is wide 'sweet spot' and your goal is to find it for yourself. Outside the bell, well you can suffer fines, losses to mold and breakage.

Amongst forums there are a lot of folks that like the 65/65 number. To each their own. True 65/65 as I can acquire it, is too wet for me.

Here is where I will warn you not to blindly follow anyone. Read, learn, try suggestions but don't become entrenched such that it blinds your own experience. This is the internet...! Be wary of those that will sound knowledgeable but cannot demonstrate what they suggest. There is very little factual data to be found on this subject on forums, and you saw the facts, but that does not mean that you should blindly follow my suggestions or anyone's. Make some notes, smoke some cigars, make more notes... Live, learn and enjoy!

Sorry about the philosophy... -LOL

-Piggy

[OB1]

I hear you, Dr. Piggy (if I may call you Dr.). I certainly appreciate the philosophy as one attraction to get into this hobby.

I was looking for a starting point to start the life long search for the perfect PMC. I'm starting out at 65RH/72F which seems ok to start with from what I'm reading/


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[PigFish]

Just Piggy... I work for a living!

65rH and 72 is a fine place to start... MHO.

Cheers guys. -Piggy

[CanuckSARTech]

I buy 62% RH "Boveda" packs, and also use 65% RH "RH Beads", for most of my storage and coolerdors.  The Boveda packs generally never go over, and the RH Beads act as an extra buffer.  Generally, my coolerdors and cabinet sits right at 64-67 F, and in a 62-65% RH level, so it all mellows quite nicely.

EDIT - Ray's video above reminded me about something.  We had a number of long conversations about this stuff, back before he started Cigar Climatology.  I will definitely point out that he explained how I'm very lucky - I live in the Great Lakes region, so generally, too much or too little heat or humidity isn't an issue for me here.  I have a cement sub-floor half-below-ground basement, so my crawl space cement floor generally stays within 5-10 degree Fahrenheit year-round.  And, we have an active HVAC for heavy heat and humidity in the summertime (and being close to the Great Lakes, having a lack of wintertime minimal humidity usually isn't too bad either, aside from in January and February usually).

So, putting a bunch of 100-quart Coleman marine coolers in that storage area of my house, with a  1/2"-5/8" cedar base within the cooler, helps this "natural humidor" set-up.  A nice huge water-tight and air-tight Coleman cooler, with the Boveda packs and the RH Beads, and even though it's an inactive / "passive" system, the functionality is picture perfect.  35-40 boxes, in a 100 qt cooler, with a Spanish cedar base, a calibratable Xikar hygrometer, and a small battery-powered Oust fan, two Boveda 62% RH packs, 3 half-pound packs of RH Beads in the 65% RH variant, set on a generally 55-60 F cement floor.  Makes for a perfect set-up, for under $150 usually.

[CanuckSARTech]

6 hours ago, PigFish said:

Discussions of rH without corresponding temperature is worthless! Percent moisture content, your goal, is derived from a binary process. Cigar condition is not dependent on rH alone.

Cheers! -Piggy

 

Damn Ray!!!!

I almost forgot how beautiful you are!!!!

And what - no gratuitous "mutant pony" shots?!??!?!  LOL.   

 

[PigFish]

NO, but if you ask nice I might show you my 'man bun!!!'

How are you amigo? -R

[PigFish]

16 hours ago, CanuckSARTech said:

EDIT - Ray's video above reminded me about something.  We had a number of long conversations about this stuff, back before he started Cigar Climatology.  I will definitely point out that he explained how I'm very lucky - I live in the Great Lakes region, so generally, too much or too little heat or humidity isn't an issue for me here.  I have a cement sub-floor half-below-ground basement, so my crawl space cement floor generally stays within 5-10 degree Fahrenheit year-round.  And, we have an active HVAC for heavy heat and humidity in the summertime (and being close to the Great Lakes, having a lack of wintertime minimal humidity usually isn't too bad either, aside from in January and February usually).

Storage is a necessary evil. One should realize what they have and what they need, so that is often the point of my discussions about storage. Yes, it is true that I am in the humidor business. As such, I understand that not everyone needs what I have to sell. Frankly, buying what you don't need to store cigars appears to me to allocate resources in the wrong direction. This means use the best system you can afford, that actually costs the least... I see this as the true logical place to start.

Cheers! -Piggy

[CanuckSARTech]

On 8/14/2017 at 11:09 AM, PigFish said:

NO, but if you ask nice I might show you my 'man bun!!!'

How are you amigo? -R

Angry now.  "Man bun" hairdos deserve to be cut the eff off!!!!! 

 

 

On 8/15/2017 at 2:52 AM, PigFish said:

Storage is a necessary evil. One should realize what they have and what they need, so that is often the point of my discussions about storage. Yes, it is true that I am in the humidor business. As such, I understand that not everyone needs what I have to sell. Frankly, buying what you don't need to store cigars appears to me to allocate resources in the wrong direction. This means use the best system you can afford, that actually costs the least... I see this as the true logical place to start.

Cheers! -Piggy

Exactly, and very well put.

[luvdunhill]

Would a cigar adjust quicker from 9% to 12% percent moisture content by adjusting temperature or adjusting relative humidity? I am assuming the answer is "the same"?

[OB1]

Just Piggy... I work for a living!

65rH and 72 is a fine place to start... MHO.

Cheers guys. -Piggy

So I'm sitting at 64rH. The temp, as reported by three different sensors, is between 72-74.

The coolerdor right now doesn't have any temperature regulation and in the winter it will go down to around 66-68F.

Should I raise the humidity in the winter, or regulate the temperature?

[PapaDisco]

On 8/15/2017 at 4:24 AM, CanuckSARTech said:

Angry now.  "Man bun" hairdos deserve to be cut the eff off!!!!! 

 

Don't jump to conclusions . . . the other possibility is that Piggy is half-assed . . .  

Thanks for the tutelage Ray!  Awesome stuff!  

[PigFish]

7 hours ago, OB1 said:

 

So I'm sitting at 64rH. The temp, as reported by three different sensors, is between 72-74.

The coolerdor right now doesn't have any temperature regulation and in the winter it will go down to around 66-68F.

Should I raise the humidity in the winter, or regulate the temperature?

 

... you should watch the video again!

I tell people that this is not intuitive until it sinks in... If you lower the temp, the PMC will increase!. Look at the video!!! As the energy of water vapor falls, the valence bond to tobacco or other hygroscopic material becomes stronger (in relation to the energy to free the molecules). You then actually pick up more water, even if the rH remains the same... even as the aH falls!!!

This is why it is important to understand hygroscopicity, and not just atmospheric rH.

As your temp falls, with aH the same, rH will increase. With the rH increase and the temperature decrease, the combination is a double whammy for cigars. This is why consistency is best if you can afford it.

So, to answer your question, lets say 6F drop, then drop rH by 2% (approximate) should make you consistent. As stated, what will likely happen is that as the temp drops the rH will naturally spike (this is why we refer back to PMC, even if we don't know exactly what it is). Temperature drops are actually what is typically responsible for PMC spreads in a humidor with good circulation.

I hope that helps.

Heating the humidor also will work, then you don't have to fiddle with anything, but if you are energy conscience, then it makes more sense to adjust the rH.

Cheers! -Piggy

[PigFish]

On 8/14/2017 at 4:20 PM, luvdunhill said:

Would a cigar adjust quicker from 9% to 12% percent moisture content by adjusting temperature or adjusting relative humidity? I am assuming the answer is "the same"?

Yes, increase in temperature will increase rate of change. Increased energy means that the flux between space and the substrate is faster. Remember, water does not bond and stay there. It is constantly exchanged. One bonds and another is released as the energy from substrate to space changes on a micro level.

Three things change rate of change. Concentration, heat and circulation. This is because there is a stagnant gradient of concentrated diffused water that varies with the distance to the surface of the substance. Disturb it, and you encourage further diffusion, rate of change!

Cheers! -Piggy

[OB1]

4 hours ago, PigFish said:

... you should watch the video again!

I tell people that this is not intuitive until it sinks in... If you lower the temp, the PMC will increase!. Look at the video!!! As the energy of water vapor falls, the valence bond to tobacco or other hygroscopic material becomes stronger (in relation to the energy to free the molecules). You then actually pick up more water, even if the rH remains the same... even as the aH falls!!!

This is why it is important to understand hygroscopicity, and not just atmospheric rH.

As your temp falls, with aH the same, rH will increase. With the rH increase and the temperature decrease, the combination is a double whammy for cigars. This is why consistency is best if you can afford it.

So, to answer your question, lets say 6F drop, then drop rH by 2% (approximate) should make you consistent. As stated, what will likely happen is that as the temp drops the rH will naturally spike (this is why we refer back to PMC, even if we don't know exactly what it is). Temperature drops are actually what is typically responsible for PMC spreads in a humidor with good circulation.

I hope that helps.

Heating the humidor also will work, then you don't have to fiddle with anything, but if you are energy conscience, then it makes more sense to adjust the rH.

Cheers! -Piggy

Hey, thanks. I got the sense wrong in my post in that I meant to say to drop (not raise) rH to maintain consistency.

My main question was if it matters whether I play with temperature or rH to maintain the same PMC. Seems like changing either one is fine as long as I keep PMC the same.

[rootsrock]

Interesting video, exactly what I've been thinking as I noticed cigars are considerably drier at a higher temperature and constant RH.
Thank you very much for the explanation.

One question though, is it possible to share the charts?

Thanks


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[PapaDisco]

12 hours ago, PigFish said:

 

So, to answer your question, lets say 6F drop, then drop rH by 2% (approximate) should make you consistent.

Over what temperature range is that 3/1 ratio consistent?  I'm guessing the curve is not linear over its entire length, but could be linear enough over short stretches (60-70F) to make it a useful rule of thumb for us humidor managers in the wild  

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, PapaDisco said:

Over what temperature range is that 3/1 ratio consistent?  I'm guessing the curve is not linear over its entire length, but could be linear enough over short stretches (60-70F) to make it a useful rule of thumb for us humidor managers in the wild  

It is just an estimation based on burley tobacco. It may be close, or way off the mark... It is the best data I have and it does follow anecdotal data (my experience). It is a starting point. I would say in this short a span consider it accurate and a straight line. When storing Habanos the ranges are relatively small, so unless someone has actual experimental data with Cuban leaf this will have to do until something better comes along.

For the record, I spent years searching to find some of these small tidbits of data!

Cheers, -Piggy

[maxcjs0101]

For long term sticks, they're kept at 65-69 RH and for those i want to smoke i have them dryboxed at less than 65rh.

[PigFish]

9 hours ago, OB1 said:

Hey, thanks. I got the sense wrong in my post in that I meant to say to drop (not raise) rH to maintain consistency.

My main question was if it matters whether I play with temperature or rH to maintain the same PMC. Seems like changing either one is fine as long as I keep PMC the same.

... to be honest, I am nitpicking! I wanted to answer your question, but frankly you might not notice the difference. And with that, we have come full circle.

The video is supposed to be a guide and frankly to put to rest the questions about the relationship between the three; rH, temp and PMC. It is supposed to give one a factual hold on what is happening so that one can buttress his/her own experience.

In the beginning I thought like many of you until I started studying hygroscopic materials and their interaction with water vapor. I did it, because as a humidor maker, I discovered that my anecdotal evidence went contrary to 'cigar myth.'

Cheers! -Piggy

[clutch5150]

I've always done the 65/65 ratios in both my fine Aristocrat custom humidors and enjoyed the results over the years.

[luv2fly]

My Avallo, not temp controlled, fluctuates between  60-63% RH and 70-73*.  Never had an issue in almost 4 years.  Cigars aging nicely.  Smoke great, to my liking, which is all I want.

[javonazul]

For long term aging (years) I try to be in the lowers 60s (60-65). For my singles or opened boxes that I know I'm going to smoke within 6 months, I don't care much as long as they are between 62 and 68... if they are in 70 at some point, no one is going to phreak out. 

So, long term: low 60s. 

Temp, in any case, always between 65 and 69. (70, don't pheak out). Honestly, before I got my cabinet with temp control, I had humidors in my room which is not air conditioned 24/7, and for two years I had not a single issue at all.

Cigars are not newborns... so as long as we keep them between those very comfortable ranges of humidity and temp, it will all be fine. 

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so

[cigarnv]

I have stored cigars at 61%, 65F for the last 30+ years with great results. This week enjoyed a 1963 RyJ Cazadores and a 1985 Davidoff #1 that smoked beautifully. Constant humidity, temperature and darkness is IMO the key.