Blind Tasting Curiosity

[zeedubbya]

Figured I would post this in a new thread:

I wonder how a group of extremely well versed and experienced Cuban Cigar Aficionados would fare in a blind tasting  competition?  Is 60% the absolute best you can hope for as El Prez mentioned in the newsletter.  If some of the most experienced smokers in the world were put in a blind tasting competition would 4/5 be a given in a standard production Tasting like the one we're doing?

Further in blind wine tastings are there people good enough to guess say 10/10 blind samples of certain wines, down to the vintage even?  Just curious?  Any feedback appreciated.  

[El Presidente]

6 out of 10 would be an exceptional score in a blind cigar tasting.

I have been part of a host of blind tastings here and overseas.  I know of maybe three people who could consistently (year in/year out) call higher than 6 out of 10 in a perfectly controlled blind tasting. 

 

[LLC]

Figured I would post this in a new thread:

I wonder how a group of extremely well versed and experienced Cuban Cigar Aficionados would fare in a blind tasting  competition?  Is 60% the absolute best you can hope for as El Prez mentioned in the newsletter.  If some of the most experienced smokers in the world were put in a blind tasting competition would 4/5 be a given in a standard production Tasting like the one we're doing?

Further in blind wine tastings are there people good enough to guess say 10/10 blind samples of certain wines, down to the vintage even?  Just curious?  Any feedback appreciated.  

I am amazed what a Sommelier has to go through to become a Master Sommelier. Never mind the theory knowledge but the speed tasting where they pick region, varietal, then the winery and finally the vintage is unbelievable.

Nothing like that with cigars but is that because it isn't possible or because there isn't the same training, courses and practice done. Not sure.


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[Guest Nekhyludov]

34 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 I know of maybe three people who could consistently (year in/year out) call higher than 6 out of 10 in a perfectly controlled blind tasting. 

This is really interesting to me. 

If this is true - and I have no doubt that it is - then paying for Cohiba, or anything else for that matter, on the assumption that the unique flavor profile is worth the premium would seem to make no sense. Most of us really can't tell the difference on taste alone. 

I've long since accepted that, for me, a big part of the experience of enjoying a cigar comes from visual, physical and circumstantial cues that most smokers tend to deride, like bands, boxes, packaging, performance, scarcity - even price and value. Sometimes I'm paying for the band and the box, which is perfectly fine since the enjoyment I experience is just as real. 

I am definitely not one of the three people who can distinguish one marca from another blind! 

[Guest Nekhyludov]

Sorry @zeedubbya, that last little rant was a bit off topic. 

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, Nekhyludov said:

This is really interesting to me. 

If this is true - and I have no doubt that it is - then paying for Cohiba, or anything else for that matter, on the assumption that the unique flavor profile is worth the premium would seem to make no sense. Most of us really can't tell the difference on taste alone. 

 

To a point 

Assume Cohiba is one of the easier ones. 

However a Punch Royal Seleccion No 11 and a Saint Luis Rey Serie A.  Both aged. 

Vegas Robaina  Unicos and Montecristo Number Two. Both Colorado maduro. Both 8 years. 

Bolivar Royal Robusto and Saint Luis Rey Regio . Colorado. 5 years.   At 18 months it is easy here. At 5 years I struggle. 

 

So you can see, 7+ out of 10 blind tastings is exceptional. 

[zeedubbya]

7 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

To a point 

Assume Cohiba is one of the easier ones. 

However a Punch Royal Seleccion No 11 and a Saint Luis Rey Serie A.  Both aged. 

Vegas Robaina  Unicos and Montecristo Number Two. Both Colorado maduro. Both 8 years. 

Bolivar Royal Robusto and Saint Luis Rey Regio . Colorado. 5 years.   At 18 months it is easy here. At 5 years I struggle. 

 

So you can see, 7+ out of 10 blind tastings is exceptional. 

I find this surprising.  It seems to me the particular "profile" of the Marque becomes more well defined with age.  In reviews you guys have done you mention flavors being muted and not well defined on fresh/young cigars.  Especially with Cohiba in particular.  I freely admit I don't think I would do any better in an aged blind tasting but it seems a universally accepted phenomenon with Cuban cigars that they "settle in" with age.  A great example is the caramel in Por Larrañaga which doesn't seem to show up for at least several years.  

I suppose I can see (to your point) how there would be a diminishing frame of reference to 5 year plus aged cigars compared to freshies simply due to the lack of consistently smoking 5 year old cigars.  However if a person had more patience than most of us and only smoked cigars when they reached the 5 year mark they would most likely do better in an aged Tasting than a fresh tasting.  Hopefully I am understanding this correctly.  

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, zeedubbya said:

I find this surprising.  It seems to me the particular "profile" of the Marque becomes more well defined with age.  In reviews you guys have done you mention flavors being muted and not well defined on fresh/young cigars.  Especially with Cohiba in particular.  I freely admit I don't think I would do any better in an aged blind tasting but it seems a universally accepted phenomenon with Cuban cigars that they "settle in" with age.  A great example is the caramel in Por Larrañaga which doesn't seem to show up for at least several years.  

I suppose I can see (to your point) how there would be a diminishing frame of reference to 5 year plus aged cigars compared to freshies simply due to the lack of consistently smoking 5 year old cigars.  However if a person had more patience than most of us and only smoked cigars when they reached the 5 year mark they would most likely do better in an aged Tasting than a fresh tasting.  Hopefully I am understanding this correctly.  

From my perspective it is important not to overthink it. 

Caramel in PL is a low hanging fruit .  Other cigars have caramel but in an aged PLPC, most should be able to nail that one.  nothing comes close. 

What I attempted (poorly) to detail  was how similar some cigars can be with some time down.  5 years is hardly aged. Perhaps "settled" is a better term.  

Some cigars of same vitola and age will have "10 degrees of separation"  They should be nailed most times. 

Other cigars of same vitola and age will have "2  degrees of separation"   They challenge even the best. 

 

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, Nekhyludov said:

8 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 I know of maybe three people who could consistently (year in/year out) call higher than 6 out of 10 in a perfectly controlled blind tasting. 

This is really interesting to me. 

If this is true - and I have no doubt that it is - then paying for Cohiba, or anything else for that matter, on the assumption that the unique flavor profile is worth the premium would seem to make no sense. Most of us really can't tell the difference on taste alone.

Quite the reverse actually: This, Rob's interesting statement alone goes to show that it is indeed not the lacking of personality and marca characteristics we are seeing - as is often being criticized in Cuban cigars, a statement that I am never buying into - but instead a lacking of discerning abilities of most smokers under a vast range of different influencing factors.

And it still makes a huge difference whether you can consistently note "a particular" difference between Cigar/Wine A and B, whether you can pick and define what you "like" or "prefer" of those different characteristics or whether - on top, so to speak - you can pinpoint blindly what exactly it is. Because such not only demands particular sensory abilities but in addition also a very well developed taste-memory and a broad and detailed knowledge, a combo that very, very few people show. But this all still doesn't rule out personal marca preferences in the usual, non-blind day-to-day setting. As has been discussed before, there is no argumentum e contrario to be made against marca characteristics from that. In other words, for some, it may well make sense to buy "Cohiba" or "Monte" or "SLR" for taste matters, even if they can't regularly pinpoint them blindly with any statistical significance.

8 hours ago, LLC said:

Nothing like that with cigars but is that because it isn't possible or because there isn't the same training, courses and practice done. Not sure.

I'd say, it's because by nature of things, a wine from the same producer, vinyard and vintage is, bottle for bottle, a much more homogeneous product than a cigar can ever be.

6 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

I find this surprising.  It seems to me the particular "profile" of the Marque becomes more well defined with age

This tallies more with my experience, as well.

[backbone]

They're only so many combinations of different leaves to create a blend right?

So it seems there should be some overlap in flavor profiles. 

 

[dominattorney]

19 hours ago, Nekhyludov said:

This is really interesting to me. 

If this is true - and I have no doubt that it is - then paying for Cohiba, or anything else for that matter, on the assumption that the unique flavor profile is worth the premium would seem to make no sense. Most of us really can't tell the difference on taste alone. 

I've long since accepted that, for me, a big part of the experience of enjoying a cigar comes from visual, physical and circumstantial cues that most smokers tend to deride, like bands, boxes, packaging, performance, scarcity - even price and value. Sometimes I'm paying for the band and the box, which is perfectly fine since the enjoyment I experience is just as real. 

I am definitely not one of the three people who can distinguish one marca from another blind! 

Hilariously, the two cigars out of 4 I guessed so far in the blind tasting were the Punch Punch and the Fonseca 1.  The Punch Punch I never had before.  The Fonseca I had only had a few of.  I didn't have either one in my humidor at the time to compare.  I totally muffed the H.Upman, which I've smoked the most of (like 50 of them), and whiffed the Cohiba, because I couldn't believe it would be a Cohiba and it tasted like an Epi 1 to me.  I've had about 15 Siglo IVs and 35 or so Epi 1s.

Re: paying for Cohiba because of the flavor profile, I absolutely agree.  To my mind, the Siglo III is worth the money and little else from that line (due mostly to that size being relatively in short supply, but I do say I have a box of 2003 Hoyo DD that are impeccable right now).  I will say that the Cohiba Lancero is worth the money, however, but then again, all lanceros are expensive.  The three of them (I'm counting the Fundy as one) in current production are all different enough that having each on hand is worth it IMHO. 

Your second point is well taken.  For me, when I fire up a Cohiba anything, it's to celebrate a milestone in my career or life, as I simply don't have the coin to drop on too many of those bad boys.  I've always been happy with the experience, but it may very well be that their construction is usually top notch, coupled with the fact that I'm generally in a celebratory and feel good mood to begin with.