Quick question on storage temp

[Cep]

Hello,

I have a cooler and lots of boveda 65, and beads.

Question is, which temp would produce drier cigars, 70f or 60f.  

And 2nd question, which temp would you choose out of the 2 choices?

Thx!

[PigFish]

... there is never a 'quick' question about temperature/rH... -LOL

70F!

I store 70F and 60-61rH.

-Piggy

[Cep]

I know u do

But, will 70@65 be drier or wetter than 60@65?

 

[PigFish]

... thought I answered that!

70F

70F will be dryer. Dryer was the request, correct?

2 hours ago, Cep said:

Question is, which temp would produce drier cigars, 70f or 60f.

Happy smokin' -Piggy

[Cep]

Ahh. Yes u are correct,

Thank u very mucho

[PigFish]

Yooor most welcome Senior. (Read with your best Frito Bandito accent!)

-tP

[TBird55]

I used to keep my cabinet in the mid 60 range, and had trouble keeping the humidity down. Thanks to our Resident Cigar Climatologist, I raised my temperature and my issues with too much humidity miraculously dissappeared.

[Philc2001]

20 hours ago, Cep said:

Hello,

I have a cooler and lots of boveda 65, and beads.

Question is, which temp would produce drier cigars, 70f or 60f.  

And 2nd question, which temp would you choose out of the 2 choices?

Thx!

Oh boy! I'm hesitant to open this can of worms, especially given the deeply held beliefs around this topic. 

Let me see if I can employ science a little here to make this neutral. This may help: http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/rh.rxml

First, I think we should observe the significance of relative, versus absolute. The "R" in RH is for "Relative" Humidity.

Relative humidity is the ratio of water vapor density in the air relative to the amount of water vapor density the air could hold at the current temperature before the vapor turns to liquid water - otherwise known as the dew point. As the temperature rises, more water vapor can be suspended in the air. As the temperature falls, the less water vapor can be suspended in the air. Hence, it is relative.

As the chart I linked indicates, the saturation vapor pressure point varies based on the temperature. At 70F the saturation vapor pressure point is 25mb, at 60F it is 17.7mb. That means that at 70F the maximum amount of water vapor density in the air cannot exceed 25mb because that is the point where water vapor turns to liquid because the air simply cannot hold any more water vapor. That is 100% humidity, that is the saturation point.

At 70F an RH reading of 65% would equate to 65% of 25mb of water vapor pressure, or 16.25mb of water vapor density in the air. At 65F where 100% RH is 17.7mb, 65% of 17.7mb is 11.5mb of water vapor density in the air. 

So, to answer your first question of which is drier, the answer is 65% RH at 70F has the same "relative" humidity as 65% RH at 60F, relative to the saturation pressure point for each temperature. If we were measuring ABSOLUTE humidity, in grams of water per cubic meter of air, then 65% at 60F would have fewer grams of water than 65% at 70F, but we don't want absolute humidity because we're not interested in the quantitative amount of water that is available. Rather, we need to know its effect on our cigars, so the amount of water relative to what we could have at the given temperature is more useful. Hence, we need to know the Relative Humidity.

To your second question, that is a matter of personal preference. If you intend to avoid a beetle breakout, then chances are better at lower temperature to avoid eggs hatching. Personally I prefer to keep cigars closer to the temperature I intend to smoke in. But I do relate to those that want to minimize the risk by avoiding higher temperatures.  

Hope I didn't derail or mislead this dialog. 

[Cep]

Thx Phil.

Ya, I dont want this thread to turn into a whole thing,  its just my only 2 options are the ones I stated, so was just looking for an answer to a specific question.

I have done some research on all this, but I still cannot get it straight in my head why 65rh at 70F leads to drier cigars than 65rh at 60F.

I understand that at the higher temp, there would be a higher amount of water in the air (vs the lower temp), correct?  But how again does that lead to the cigars being drier?  I wish I could understand that part.

 

[fabes]

2 minutes ago, Cep said:

Thx Phil.

Ya, I dont want this thread to turn into a whole thing,  its just my only 2 options are the ones I stated, so was just looking for an answer to a specific question.

I have done some research on all this, but I still cannot get it straight in my head why 65rh at 70F leads to drier cigars than 65rh at 60F.

I understand that at the higher temp, there would be a higher amount of water in the air (vs the lower temp), correct?  But how again does that lead to the cigars being drier?  I wish I could understand that part.

 

Think about water in a freezer... ice cubes. The water particles move slower and stick to each other. So when the temp is lower, more water will make friends with your cigars. 

Think about water at a boiling temp making steam. The water particles are moving around faster and don't particularly want to stick to each other. So when the temp is higher, the water wants to move around and will loosen its bond to the cigar. 

Hopefully I got that right. What helps me remember is thinking of a street lamp or a metal sign post. In cold temperatures, you might find water on the post, but when it's hot you won't see water hanging on to the post. Thinking about it in those extremes helps me remember how it works when comparing 65°F to 70°F. 

[dhp]

11 minutes ago, fabes said:

Think about water in a freezer... ice cubes. The water particles move slower and stick to each other. So when the temp is lower, more water will make friends with your cigars. 

Think about water at a boiling temp making steam. The water particles are moving around faster and don't particularly want to stick to each other. So when the temp is higher, the water wants to move around and will loosen its bond to the cigar. 

Hopefully I got that right. What helps me remember is thinking of a street lamp or a metal sign post. In cold temperatures, you might find water on the post, but when it's hot you won't see water hanging on to the post. Thinking about it in those extremes helps me remember how it works when comparing 65°F to 70°F. 

This doesn't really make sense to me.  Water particles, regardless of how "quickly" they move, are still going to be in equilbrium between water going into the cigar and out of the cigar.  Now, at a higher temperature, it would make more sense that the cigars more quickly reach a moisture equilibrium, but otherwise, if RH is constant, it still doesn't explain why temperature changes would affect the cigar moisture. 

 

 

[fabes]

I'll admit to being clumsy at explaining this, especially when compared to some of our climate experts, but here's another shot. 

RH is the amount of water vapor the air can hold as a %. As the temperature increases, the air can hold more water vapor so the rH % decreases. Which would mean that at 70°F the air would be less saturated with water vapor (drier) than it would be at 60°F. 

[Philc2001]

1 hour ago, Cep said:

I have done some research on all this, but I still cannot get it straight in my head why 65rh at 70F leads to drier cigars than 65rh at 60F.

I understand that at the higher temp, there would be a higher amount of water in the air (vs the lower temp), correct?  But how again does that lead to the cigars being drier?  I wish I could understand that part.

 

There is no noticeable difference in moisture content between the two. The air is 65% saturated with water vapor in both cases. What you are expressing is a percentage of how saturated the air is with water vapor. RH is a gaseous expression. So think of a balloon, if you fill the balloon to capacity at 80F, and then you put that balloon into your fridge at 40F, what happens to the balloon? It will shrink, right? But the volume of air in the balloon didn't change. The same amount of air is in the balloon at 80F as at 40F, so if you then take that balloon out of the fridge and put it into 80F surroundings again the balloon will expand back to the size it was before. 

The same thing basically happens with humidity. If you have 65% of the air saturated with water vapor at 70F, it is the same as 65% of the air saturated at 60F. The ratio is the same. 

[Cep]

but

[Philc2001]

26 minutes ago, fabes said:

I'll admit to being clumsy at explaining this, especially when compared to some of our climate experts, but here's another shot. 

RH is the amount of water vapor the air can hold as a %. As the temperature increases, the air can hold more water vapor so the rH % decreases. Which would mean that at 70°F the air would be less saturated with water vapor (drier) than it would be at 60°F.  

We are not trying to express a specific quantity, we are talking about a percentage. And specifically, we are talking about the percentage of how saturated the air surrounding the cigars is, not how much moisture is in the cigars themselves. We can't simply make a leap from one to the other. We have to correlate it to the gas pressure and temperature. For all intents and purposes, relative humidity is relative in all temperatures and pressures, so 65% RH at 60F is the same as 65% RH at 70F in percentage terms of how saturated the air is. 

But to the specific question; which climate condition makes the cigars drier or wetter? This is referring to the content of moisture in the cigar itself. So now we are talking about how much moisture does the cigar absorb from the air it is stored in. And that is where I think this all gets hung up. The specific amount of moisture is not important, but what you are ultimately trying to determine is the effect on cigars over an extended storage period in two different climate conditions. Will the cigars stored in 60F@65%RH burn any different from cigars stored in 70F@65%RH? 

The answer is not easy to determine without extensive testing in a controlled environment, where not only the storage conditions are consistent, but the smoking conditions too. I don't know who has done testing like that and I suspect any such testing is probably purely anecdotal and subject to one's specific preferences.

I am one who believes the smoking conditions have a lot to do with how a cigar burns. I find when the temperature in my yard is 90F@90%RH almost any cigar I smoke burns poorly. But I also suspect a big temperature differential between storage and smoking climate without time to acclimate also creates problems. It's akin to taking a cold can of beer out into the hot humid air, water condenses on the can - the same with cigars, only it may not condense like dew on a can, but it does affect the combustion.

So, full circle, what you want to know is what conditions are best for cigar storage. Age old question that continues to be debated.  

 

[PigFish]

But there is evidence and it is not anecdotal. Do your research folks (like I have) and you will learn for yourselves. EMC is a very important part in tobacco processing. The guys who spend big money on this stuff are not the people at Tabacuba, but a places like Reynolds and PM. That is where the research comes from, and again it is not anecdotal.

You guys have spent a lot of time taking about air. Water vapor is a part of 'air' and does not bond to it. Saturation of water, whether you view it in the form aH or rH really means very little. rH is just a means to calculate aH.

If you guys want to do some research on the topic, I suggest you start with the study of Aw, with is water activity. There is a broad scope of science and research in this field and it encompasses tobacco.

Phil or someone above mentioned bond strength. That is what it is about when it comes to temperature and rH. What is saturation level? What the vapor pressure of water will do to the bonds it makes in tobacco? These are linked!!! No ifs, ands or buts! The research has been done for you and it is empirically derived. What is more you can (with the proper equipment) test this yourself with a precision device for keeping constant temperature and rH, a precision scale, a calendar and a spreadsheet.

Forget about the air analogies. This is taking you down the wrong path. The three phases of water is far more sensible as I have brought it up many times now. Water evaporates naturally in less then 100rH conditions. If you heat it, you change the energy level and the point at which it will bond to itself. The higher the temp, the more it seeks a gaseous state, the less it wants to bond. Pretty simple!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Philc2001]

44 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Forget about the air analogies. This is taking you down the wrong path. The three phases of water is far more sensible as I have brought it up many times now. Water evaporates naturally in less then 100rH conditions. If you heat it, you change the energy level and the point at which it will bond to itself. The higher the temp, the more it seeks a gaseous state, the less it wants to bond. Pretty simple!

Cheers! -Piggy

Ray, I think this really just boils down to one underlying question:  which cigars smoke better, the ones stored in 65%@60F or the ones stored in 65%@70F? All the science is a side show in the final analysis. Which do you like better? I'd rather have 65%@70F, but I would just add that I doubt I could tell the difference. 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Philc2001 said:

Ray, I think this really just boils down to one underlying question:  which cigars smoke better, the ones stored in 65%@60F or the ones stored in 65%@70F? All the science is a side show in the final analysis. Which do you like better? I'd rather have 65%@70F, but I would just add that I doubt I could tell the difference. 

...but it was not the question! I fully agree with you on the concept of your post. I don't care if you keep you cigars the way you like them with a sundial, the accuracy, the precision, the settings, all just stuff to BS about on the forum. They are guides, I get that, I am with you. What do you like and how you keep it is your (one's) business.

Unfortunately I talk to a lot of people who go in and out of stages of what they like. It is not that their preference changes, but their cigars do, often seasonally. Now we have come full circle. We cannot talk cigars without talking a common language, and the language of condition, while in truth it is EMC, it is estimated and judged by your palate, and kept abreast of via instruments (rH and temp).

Knowing how environment affects cigars is a part of the process and the common language. Someone who is experiencing problems, just for example, needs a place to look for his problems. He/she needs a datum and a core concept of what happens when he/she makes changes. Conditions come in to play here as well as what needs to be changed to correct the problem.

I have said, no one cares how it works, as long as it works. When it stops working, people start to care. The same holds true in humidors. As long as all is well and the cigars are tasting good, no mold etc., life is good. Piggy is nuts, we have no idea what he is taking about, until our 'perfect system' now produces moldy cigars and he (or someone) appears to know why! When these things change we need to finger the right source to correct the problem.

Always a good discussion when you are involved...

Cheers! -R

[PigFish]

7 hours ago, Cep said:

Thx Phil.

Ya, I dont want this thread to turn into a whole thing,  its just my only 2 options are the ones I stated, so was just looking for an answer to a specific question.

I have done some research on all this, but I still cannot get it straight in my head why 65rh at 70F leads to drier cigars than 65rh at 60F.

I understand that at the higher temp, there would be a higher amount of water in the air (vs the lower temp), correct?  But how again does that lead to the cigars being drier?  I wish I could understand that part.

 

Lets take a fixed rH ambient. If you heat water, will it evaporate faster or slower? Take what you know about water (liquid water, not air) and just apply it to tobacco. You cannot go wrong. Water bonding to water is much like water bonding to tobacco. Heat it and steam (water vapor) comes off of it. Same with tobacco.

Hope that helps. -tP

[luvdunhill]

If I run my lighter down the length of a cigar before smoking it, a few inches from the cigar, will I appreciably change the moisture content of a cigar? It's like speed dry boxing!

[PigFish]

4 hours ago, luvdunhill said:

If I run my lighter down the length of a cigar before smoking it, a few inches from the cigar, will I appreciably change the moisture content of a cigar? It's like speed dry boxing!

I have often suggested that folks might try hot boxing, to dry boxing.

Evaporation is an endothermic process. Add heat, aid evaporation. I cannot see that running an open flame on the wrapper of a cigar is anything but risky. But they are your smokes, why ask when you can try it for yourself?

The question then is, how long until heated water vapor will travel, not from the surface of a single leaf, but through a maze of leaves to actually exit the cigar. I have seen surface area calculations for tobacco processing. But processing 'assumes' processing conditions, not force adjustments of a finished product, such as a finished cigar.

Finished cigar processing such as in the escaparate is anything but forced. Forcing water out of a cigar, at least at the manufacturing level is likely considered risky. The escaparate is the place for cigars to 'gas-off.' This is the last phase of their processing, and most makers don't force this process. The finished cigar is the most expensive and valuable inventory. There is no sense in forcing this process if the risk of damaging the finished product rises substantially. There must be some risk/reward or the process would not exist.

-Piggy

[dhp]

14 hours ago, PigFish said:

Lets take a fixed rH ambient. If you heat water, will it evaporate faster or slower? Take what you know about water (liquid water, not air) and just apply it to tobacco. You cannot go wrong. Water bonding to water is much like water bonding to tobacco. Heat it and steam (water vapor) comes off of it. Same with tobacco.

Hope that helps. -tP

But in a closed system, like a tupperdor, you will quickly reach equilibrium.  And the idea behind heartfelt beads/boveda packs is that those things provide the water source to reach equilibrium instead of the moisture in your cigars.  Once equiblirium is reached, there shouldn't be any evaporation/water loss from the tobacco.  The only question is whether the temperature affects the moisture content of the cigars at equilibrium.

[PigFish]

You might want to brush up on your information about "desiccant buffers" as well as aqueous salts. I have written exhaustively on the subject here.

I am not going to take on anyones 'trade named' products and simply refer to them as such, desiccant buffers and or aqueous salts, because that is what they are!

Desiccants are just like your cigar in that they act just like your cigars to heat and water vapor saturation. They are 'like' your cigars in behavior, but not exactly like your cigars their ability to adsorb, weight of grams of water per gram of product per rH and temp. This means that their isotherm for a given temperature is different. As the can hold more water per gram of substrate, your typical silica bead is about 30-35% weight by water in a 70F-65rH environment where your typical cigar is likely about 9%.

The two compete for water. With the right amount of beads, as the humidor (container) dries, both substrates will give up water. The idea is that with the proper amount of desiccant the loss from the cigars themselves will be mitigated some by the loss in the beads.

Water lost is water lost, water gained is water gained (by the closed system). Therefore each will be reflected in the desiccant substrate and the cigars. If there is far more weight of water in the desiccant substrate then most of the water will come from there. If there is far more water in the tobacco, well, the water will come from there. It is not that one will necessarily 'give up more.' It is simply a mass of water proposition with some tweaking for an individual isotherm for each substrate.

Aqueous salts are a better water source and better buffer for stable heat conditions. These are actually water sources where desiccant buffers are not really, not unless you keep massive amounts of the stuff, I mean like 30% the weight of your cigars! The truth is, most people (resellers alike) don't understand desiccant buffers, and misuse them. A proper ration is not desiccant/cubic foot, but weight of conditioned desiccant to weight of conditioned cigar. I am wandering now.

Considering surface area and loss, the cigars will go though massive changes (theoretically) first, this is simply due to water available and surface area, and the aqueous salt, working through a rather small permeable membrane, will catch up later. Air exchanges are going to hit your cigars first mate, as they are your primary source of water and surface area (typically) as the packaged products have limited surface area and a likely wider hysteresis for a given differential.

You are also wrong about how quickly, well let me rephrase that, what do you mean by quickly?

A desiccant in a container can take hours to recover the equilibrium rH state. I can prove this to you with a data log if I can find some. I tested this extensively for years! They question is, what does 'quickly' mean?

This is what I mean by quickly! This is not really pertinent to our conversation as I believe in active humidors, not passive ones. This is one of my active humidors (data log in May) adjusting internal climate in an 80F+ ambient. The ambient line is the red, and the humidor rH is in blue. This is active, this is fast!

All I can write for now!

Cheers! -Piggy

 

 

[PigFish]

This is a part of a passive/active experiment I did in 2013... I don't have attached notes, but it is pretty self-explanatory. I think I was testing my own bead products here in a passive state for air exchange recovery, but I could be wrong...!

Cheers! -Piggy

[dhp]

Oh, I believe you on the kinetics of the mass transfer... to me "quickly" was on the order of hours, though it's good to see actual data.  I think what you say makes perfect sense and refutes my thought that the dessicants provide the initial water vapor during any perturbation of the system.  But, my real question, and I think this entire thread, has more to do with asking which factors govern the moisture content of a cigar at equilibrium.  Is it temperature itself?  RH?  Absolute humidity (dependent on temperature)?  

To bring the RH to equilibrium, let's say that the cigars provide most of that initial moisture and lose some portion of their moisture content.  Then, do the cigars slowly gain back that moisture to get back to where they were?