Stock Quality Overview

[ironpeddler]

10 hours ago, RijkdeGooier said:

Your observations are in line with what was generally to be expected after the less than ideal harvests from the last years. 

 

Also, one would think that after the devastating hurricanes that have ravaged the island of Cuba the last 6-7 years that they would have rebuilt the aging and storage buildings to withstand such storms in the future. 

[PigFish]

3 minutes ago, ironpeddler said:

Also, one would think that after the devastating hurricanes that have ravaged the island of Cuba the last 6-7 years that they would have rebuilt the aging and storage buildings to withstand such storms in the future. 

... that is centralized 'statist' planning for you!

It is only one of the mainstay exports for the island... Oh, and lets stiff the farmers, and ream our customers to boot! -LOL

-the Pig

[JamesKPolkEsq]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

... that is centralized 'statist' planning for you!

It is only one of the mainstay exports for the island... Oh, and lets stiff the farmers, and ream our customers to boot! -LOL

-the Pig

Meh, what are their customers going to do in response? Buy NC? Extremely doubtful, IMHO.

They have a captive market, and even their educated consumers will continue to purchase CC.

[PigFish]

7 minutes ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Meh, what are their customers going to do in response? Buy NC? Extremely doubtful, IMHO.

They have a captive market, and even their educated consumers will continue to purchase CC.

... and this continues to be the problem! We are stuck...

-the Pig

[Philc2001]

9 minutes ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Meh, what are their customers going to do in response? Buy NC? Extremely doubtful, IMHO.

They have a captive market, and even their educated consumers will continue to purchase CC.

I did it for ten years.  In my case I scaled back smoking, and I went about 50/50, NC/CC. Now I'm back to near 100% CC. But I'm growing increasingly unhappy with the marketing and pricing behavior. Regular production seems to be declining while more and more LE, RE production with huge price gauging is wearing on my nerves.  

[RijkdeGooier]

59 minutes ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Meh, what are their customers going to do in response? Buy NC? Extremely doubtful, IMHO.

They have a captive market, and even their educated consumers will continue to purchase CC.

Go on a buying hiatus, wait for a turn-around and hope our current stock lasts the drought. 

[RijkdeGooier]

2 hours ago, ironpeddler said:

Also, one would think that after the devastating hurricanes that have ravaged the island of Cuba the last 6-7 years that they would have rebuilt the aging and storage buildings to withstand such storms in the future. 

It wasn't as much the budings as what was on the fields at the time. 

[Versus1ss]

We (Greg and I) had a couple of good days in the warehouse. It is certainly easier to get through the volume of boxes when you have an exacting extra set of eyes/hands. Greg has had some good training having overseen some 40,000 boxes over the past couple of years. 

It is no secret that wrapper quality has fallen off a cliff.  I think you will hear the same from any vendor/distributor in the world. If they say different then simply they are being less than honest. 

Let's put it in perspective. 

There are few "wow" boxes. A "wow" mastercase is almost non existent.  The top end of quality has retreated to a mid level. Troubling thing is that much of the mid level quality has fallen back to "eek". 

Here is an example. This is now my best box of trini Reyes (24) and that encompases over a case. 



Outside of the Monte 2 in 10's I couldn't find any quality Monte 2 in 25's. None above a PE level. I know there are plenty of you who have reached out to me looking for quality Monte 2 in 25's. The reality is that I just don't have them. Monte 4 is the same problem.. I cried when I looked at the Monte 5.  

D4's are struggling. VR Unicos look like they were wrapped in binders. Let's forget about trinidad unless looking at Vigia. R&J Wides are in the main appalling. I saw my worst boxes of Partagas E2 ever. 

Cohiba Siglo line is holding up well in terms of quality. CORO same. Boli RC and PC holding the line. 

Saw a few boxes of Winstons and Behike but they were scouts from what will hopefully be a larger shipment later in the month. 

Nothing in terms of Monte Especial, Lancero, Esplendido, Coronas Especiales. At least nothing in 25's.  There were no 898's and there is no need to mention that there are no Dieux, Prince, SLRDC, Punch DC.  We have been told that there are no BBF incoming for another month unless in dress box 25's. 

If you were a new CEO of HSA you would ask at the next board meeting...."how in hell did you  get to this point"

For all the gloom Greg and I managed to pick some cracking cigars. It just took us three times as long to do so. 

I suspect this "special period" will continue through to about this time next year. God I hope not but unless the powers that be have held back some quality tobacco then the situation is likely to get worse before it gets any better. 

 As they say ......it is always darkest before the dawn.   

I will give you a heads up when I start seeing some rays of light 

So will the behike be only a 24:24 listing or will it also sell from the online store....that will be my next purchase which I will start saving for.


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[jwr0201]

On May 12, 2017 at 1:45 PM, PigFish said:

I am with you Beav... I have never been a big trader or secondary, tertiary market shopper. People sell stuff for money at times, divorces, job losses etc., but a lot of this stuff has been sized up by the previous owner as substandard (at least in some cases) and they want to be rid of it.

I would prefer to take my chances with virgin boxes unless I know the seller really well.

-tP

I very much agree.  After making a good number of trades, I find that there is often a reason someone is looking to part with lots and often they are looking to be rid of substandard cigars.  This is quite disappointing when one sends decent, sought after sticks and receive poor items in return.  I am finding it is best to do box purchases as well.  

[jwr0201]

On May 12, 2017 at 0:23 PM, PigFish said:

For those newer to the interest. Wrapper appearance may be important to many of you, but empirically, when you have smoked thousands of CCs, you will understand that the appearance of the wrapper is only skin deep. It has no correlation to the 'quality of the taste' of the cigar.

With the acknowledgement that my experience is no where near that of yours, I respectfully disagree.  I believe that a pale, sickly wrapper is an indication of what may well be that of things to come with many CC's.  I base this on a few experiences with items received in trades where the cigars have wrappers that pale in comparison to the norm for the marcas.  I received some 2014 HU 2's that turned out to be ghostly pale and the same with another group of '14 Monte Petit No 2's.  The Montes also had a good bit of mold as well.  In neither case was this noted prior to my receiving them.  Taste on each was as pale as the wrappers.

On the other hand, I have no issue with seconds where there is some foot damage.  Bought many a box from our host that way and found no issue at all with taste and construction quality.  

[SticksAndSticks]

5 hours ago, RijkdeGooier said:

Go on a buying hiatus, wait for a turn-around and hope our current stock lasts the drought. 

That depends on how many buyers are actually informed about the current quality. I'd wager most of their cigars don't go to people as invested as the FOH community.

[PigFish]

35 minutes ago, jwr0201 said:

With the acknowledgement that my experience is no where near that of yours, I respectfully disagree.  I believe that a pale, sickly wrapper is an indication of what may well be that of things to come with many CC's.  I base this on a few experiences with items received in trades where the cigars have wrappers that pale in comparison to the norm for the marcas.  I received some 2014 HU 2's that turned out to be ghostly pale and the same with another group of '14 Monte Petit No 2's.  The Montes also had a good bit of mold as well.  In neither case was this noted prior to my receiving them.  Taste on each was as pale as the wrappers.

On the other hand, I have no issue with seconds where there is some foot damage.  Bought many a box from our host that way and found no issue at all with taste and construction quality.  

Personal tastes and experience are everything my friend... Enjoy what you like!

Man, I hope you are right... There is really nothing better (IMHO) than a thin, delicate but sound claro wrapped Cuban cigar. Frankly, appearance wise there is nothing better. Wrappers should burn and look nice, that is all that they are for. This dark, Miami tanning booth, maduro stuff is just more of the Cuban State Government tobacco company proving that they cannot lead this market.

Bring back the light Colorado cigar!!! Pack it firm and put it in a 42 ring...

Oh, was I dreaming? Yes, apparently!

If your Cuban cigar tastes like crap blame the company that rolled it... The innocent light wrapper has nothing to do with it.

With respect for your opinion, this is just mine!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

4 hours ago, PigFish said:

Personal tastes and experience are everything my friend... Enjoy what you like!

Man, I hope you are right... There is really nothing better (IMHO) than a thin, delicate but sound claro wrapped Cuban cigar. Frankly, appearance wise there is nothing better. Wrappers should burn and look nice, that is all that they are for. This dark, Miami tanning booth, maduro stuff is just more of the Cuban State Government tobacco company proving that they cannot lead this market.

Bring back the light Colorado cigar!!! Pack it firm and put it in a 42 ring...

Oh, was I dreaming? Yes, apparently!

If your Cuban cigar tastes like crap blame the company that rolled it... The innocent light wrapper has nothing to do with it.

With respect for your opinion, this is just mine!

Cheers! -Piggy

There is far too much emphasis, in some quarters, placed on wrapper colour as indicative of taste and quality.  Ray is correct.  I've smoked cigars having nearly the whole gamut of wrapper colours.  Some claro and colorado-claro ones had surprising depth of flavour and not a few colorado and maduro ones failed to deliver the goodies.  Having said that, I endured some SLR Regios having very light claro wrappers and they were an abomination: quite lacking in flavour.  The only redeeming feature was that they had been rolled well.

[Philc2001]

Bring back the light Colorado cigar!!! Pack it firm and put it in a 42 ring...

Oh, was I dreaming? Yes, apparently!


Cheers! -Piggy

Give that Piggy a cigar!

The trend towards maduro is not helping Cuba make better cigars IMHO.


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[PigFish]

A lot of places, and this one is no exception, places this emphasis on wrappers. The emphasis on grading cigars by wrappers... from aesthetics, I get it. It has nothing to do (IMHO) with the quality of taste. I just happen to like light (call them Connecticut shade type) wrappers. It is what I truly miss from NC cigars, the fine, light, refined looking wrappers.

And this oils on the wrapper thing... If you lick the cigar does it taste like a cigar (smoking a cigar) tastes? Who said the 'oils on the wrapper' have anything to do with anything is beyond me. This is a bunch of marketing hype, but as always I say believe what you like.

As I wrote in above, what the wrapper looks like can certainly disappoint or please you, but the heart and soul of a cigar, like a human being is wrapped up inside.

I am not pissing on preferences or trashing beliefs, smoke enough cigars and separate the ocular from the gastronomic and you will see there is little if no correlation. Of course if you are saying that cigars taste better with friends, then you are not judging the cigars as much as your mood. I am talking cigars and the 'smoking' experience, not the fun of the herf or party!

All, just one pig's opinions!

-Piggy

[uscmd310]

I had a discussion with two very knowledgeable cigar guys and they boasted that wrapper has very little to do with cigar taste, less than 3%. Of course I was dubious, so they laughed at my disbelief and went about an experiment. They took the wrapper off my cigar except for the neck which was held by the band. So the very little wrapper that was left was above the band. After I got over my shock (and put aside the aesthetics of naked filler), they were correct. Very little if any taste difference without the wrapper.

 

I think most of the taste of the wrapper is your lips touching the wrapper before the puff. With regards to actually burning the wrapper - very little difference.

[El Presidente]

On 5/13/2017 at 2:35 PM, LLC said:

Rob I'll be interested in your thoughts on the taste and flavors of some of the cigars where wrappers are pale and not what we typically look for. I had one of the people I know in Havana who is very involved in many aspects of the cigar industry tell me that although cigars from the past few years looked much better the flavors of current year are as good or better. Of course this person has vested interest and may just be saying that but I know you'll tell it like it is.


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I am a lover of quality pale wrappers. Certain cigars "sing" best with these wrappers. Many an Upmann come to mind + SLR+ others. 

A dry, rough, paperbark pale wrapper doesn't enhance anything to my mind. 

[El Presidente]

4 hours ago, uscmd310 said:

I had a discussion with two very knowledgeable cigar guys and they boasted that wrapper has very little to do with cigar taste, less than 3%. Of course I was dubious, so they laughed at my disbelief and went about an experiment. They took the wrapper off my cigar except for the neck which was held by the band. So the very little wrapper that was left was above the band. After I got over my shock (and put aside the aesthetics of naked filler), they were correct. Very little if any taste difference without the wrapper.

 

I think most of the taste of the wrapper is your lips touching the wrapper before the puff. With regards to actually burning the wrapper - very little difference.

We had a fine cigar roller (Yasmel) come out to Oz near a decade back and set him the task of changing wrappers on cigars for such an experiment. 

Chalk and cheese was the change. For those involved in the test is was an eye opener. 

When choosing wrappers for custom blends you note the significant change on the outcome. 

Say wrapper is 5% of a cigar.  When you smoke a quality Claro wrappered Monte 2 it is a fine cigar. coffee, biscuit, nuts, toasted tobacco. Now change that wrapper to a fine Colorado maduro wrapper and you have cocoa, choc notes, coffee, biscuit, toasted tobacco. 

It is hard to quantify the change. Some would say 5%, some would say 10% some would say 100%. Much comes down to your definition of change. 

[kuma]

Again I'm a neophyte when it comes to years smoking cigars (2010) but I remember some where / someone telling

me that for long skinnies the cigar is all about the wrappers; Dalia's, Panetela Larga's, Palmita's, Julieta's, Ninfa's,

Cosaco's, Franciscano's, Laguito #1's, Seoane's, Laguito #2's and #3's, Carlota's, Trabuco's and last but not least

Cervante.  Yes, yes I know some of these are not made any longer but you could stumble bum your way over these in one

of those out of the way places where you would never imagine these to be. Chile, South Africa, Albania, Cote d. Ivoire,

Estonia, Fiji, Georgia (country), Cyprus, Hungary, Liechtenstein, Mali, Malta, etc, etc,...well you get the picture!

Oh I left out one or two;  Miami beach known for great CC's and our dear friends to the south of the US of A;

the Caribbean countries know for that very elusive and hard to find; the glass topped box of Cohiba 5 pack of Robustos.

um, um good can't wait to bring some back for dad and the boy's at our bar / club next time I'm there Cao mates!

[Fuzz]

 

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

We had a fine cigar roller (Yasmel) come out to Oz near a decade back and set him the task of changing wrappers on cigars for such an experiment. 

Chalk and cheese was the change. For those involved in the test is was an eye opener. 

When choosing wrappers for custom blends you note the significant change on the outcome. 

Say wrapper is 5% of a cigar.  When you smoke a quality Claro wrappered Monte 2 it is a fine cigar. coffee, biscuit, nuts, toasted tobacco. Now change that wrapper to a fine Colorado maduro wrapper and you have cocoa, choc notes, coffee, biscuit, toasted tobacco. 

It is hard to quantify the change. Some would say 5%, some would say 10% some would say 100%. Much comes down to your definition of change. 

 

 

[semifan1]

20 hours ago, PigFish said:

A lot of places, and this one is no exception, places this emphasis on wrappers. The emphasis on grading cigars by wrappers... from aesthetics, I get it. It has nothing to do (IMHO) with the quality of taste. I just happen to like light (call them Connecticut shade type) wrappers. It is what I truly miss from NC cigars, the fine, light, refined looking wrappers.

And this oils on the wrapper thing... If you lick the cigar does it taste like a cigar (smoking a cigar) tastes? Who said the 'oils on the wrapper' have anything to do with anything is beyond me. This is a bunch of marketing hype, but as always I say believe what you like.

As I wrote in above, what the wrapper looks like can certainly disappoint or please you, but the heart and soul of a cigar, like a human being is wrapped up inside.

I am not pissing on preferences or trashing beliefs, smoke enough cigars and separate the ocular from the gastronomic and you will see there is little if no correlation. Of course if you are saying that cigars taste better with friends, then you are not judging the cigars as much as your mood. I am talking cigars and the 'smoking' experience, not the fun of the herf or party!

All, just one pig's opinions!

-Piggy

I think your first paragraph hit the nail on the head.

[Fugu]

On 14/05/2017 at 5:56 PM, PigFish said:

A lot of places, and this one is no exception, places this emphasis on wrappers. The emphasis on grading cigars by wrappers... from aesthetics, I get it. It has nothing to do (IMHO) with the quality of taste. I just happen to like light (call them Connecticut shade type) wrappers. It is what I truly miss from NC cigars, the fine, light, refined looking wrappers.

And this oils on the wrapper thing... If you lick the cigar does it taste like a cigar (smoking a cigar) tastes? Who said the 'oils on the wrapper' have anything to do with anything is beyond me. This is a bunch of marketing hype, but as always I say believe what you like.

As I wrote in above, what the wrapper looks like can certainly disappoint or please you, but the heart and soul of a cigar, like a human being is wrapped up inside.

I am not pissing on preferences or trashing beliefs, smoke enough cigars and separate the ocular from the gastronomic and you will see there is little if no correlation. Of course if you are saying that cigars taste better with friends, then you are not judging the cigars as much as your mood. I am talking cigars and the 'smoking' experience, not the fun of the herf or party!

All, just one pig's opinions!

-Piggy

Right or wrong, opinion/anecdote or wisdom - this just happens to coincide with my experience.

The wrapper is important - but just for looks and for its burn properties (mHo).

[PigFish]

I say TOMATO!

When I go to the market I see all the lovely tomatoes. Some are ruby red, perfectly spherical, smooth and shiny. THEY ALL TASTE LIKE CRAP!

Lesson learned. All is not gold that glitters! The ocular and the gastronomic are NOT necessarily linked.

The packaging has nothing to do with how the cigar tastes, and wrappers are largely packaging... Like the modern tomato, grown to look good!

If you understand the way tobacco is grown/harvested for flavor, then the tastiest wrappers are likely the more robust leaves taken from the top of the plant. They are likely to be smaller, rougher and uglier...! If anything, the best tasting wrappers are likely the ugliest. 

-the Pig

[RijkdeGooier]

Well @Fugu and @PigFish you do make very interesting points. 

However, I concur with @El Presidente in that a change in wrapper does impact the taste of the cigar in my experience. 

The two Mag46 I smoked side by side. They were the same cigar no doubt but it was also clear the darker one had more power and the lighter one was a bit more refined. 

I hate to put a number on the difference though. 

[PigFish]

33 minutes ago, RijkdeGooier said:

Well @Fugu and @PigFish you do make very interesting points. 

However, I concur with @El Presidente in that a change in wrapper does impact the taste of the cigar in my experience. 

The two Mag46 I smoked side by side. They were the same cigar no doubt but it was also clear the darker one had more power and the lighter one was a bit more refined. 

I hate to put a number on the difference though. 

I don't have a habit of calling many things 'wrong' in the cigar world. I typically keep that confined to scientific issues that can be proven. Who is to say that you are wrong? Certainly not me!

But I do like to bring folks back with some logic. I am not trying to 'prove them wrong' I just want them to think about what I write and see if it has merit.

My friend you smoked two, separate and different cigars. You not only smoked two different wrappers, but different fillers, binders and potentially even blends. This type of test has linked the ocular to the taste... In doing so, you may just have drawn the wrong conclusion.

You go to a party... You see to XXX men fighting. You therefore conclude that all XXX men are violent! Does this sound like a judgment you would make?

The doctor finds you have a heart problem. He gives you 5 medications to address your maladies. You get sick. You conclude that the doctor is bad, or one specific drug that he gave you is bad... 

These are cases of too many variables and prejudice.

Look mate, I am not discounting your experience, you owe me no explanation. In this example I am sure you are right about the two cigars (in how they smoked and tasted). I am asking you, could your conclusion be formed by judging the cigars on the wrapper alone? Did you examine the insides of the cigar? Did you weigh them to see that they were the same weight? Did you store them exactly the same? Did they come from the same factory, rolled on the same day by the same roller where each tobacco was shared half of each leaf, except the wrapper?

I will hazard to guess the answer to these questions are no.

With all the variables known to exist in the cigar making process, are you quite sure that the only difference between these two cigars were the wrappers? What was the color of the binders? Do you have pictures of those?

Could you now be 'pre-judging' wrappers based on their color?

Cheers! -the Pig