Pinar Del Rio Weather

[Ole]

  On 6/27/2017 at 8:04 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

1. If the recent strains were as rich and intense and consistent as the old Corojo and Criollo I'd actually be fine with the transitions. The main problem I have with modern CCs is the lack of what I would call flavor "presence" or richness and the persistence of bland spots, as well as the frequently "muddled" nature of the flavors resulting in a cigar not knowing what it wants to be, or "identity crisis."

2. As I have had some--but very few--recent cigars that seem to break that mold, I remain ever hopeful that Tabacuba can continue to work these strains and locations out and eventually return to the quality present prior to 1997.

3. One thing than many forget or don't realize is that Crilollo and Corojo were pretty much gone by 1995, and many of the CCs I smoked between 95-98 were absolutely fantastic. As this time it should have been exclusively Havana 92 for filler and binder and Havana 2000 for wrapper,

4. and I believe Sancti Spiritus 96 and Habana Vuelta Arriba may have also been in the mix. Although according to MRN there appeared to be a shift to lighter blends in many cigars,

5. whatever they were doing from 1995 to 1998 was still very, very good--and they apparently did it without Corojo and Criollo. 

6. Interestingly, it seems we don't actually know what strains are being planted and where.

 

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Thanks for Your interesting comments.

1. "If the recent strains were as rich and intense and consistent as the old Corojo and Criollo I'd actually be fine with the transitions. The main problem I have with modern CCs is the lack of what I would call flavor "presence" or richness and the persistence of bland spots, as well as the frequently "muddled" nature of the flavors resulting in a cigar not knowing what it wants to be, or "identity crisis."

-Richness, intensity, presence: I guess this is what MRN denotes as 'flavour intensity' -a fourth term I have added to my previous (limited) vocabulary in describing a cigar:

strength

complexity and

harmony.

With the lack of flavours in present day cigars coming out of Cuba- on top of the basic tobacco flavour - I think 'flavour intensity' is the most important term in describing the appearance on the palate. Consequently I find the wine based CA scale totally worthless in evaluating cigars. A 100 point scale starting at 50, awarding 25 points to 'overall impression' doesn't leave much for flavours. 90 points may be awarded for a perfectly constructed good looking Limitada with not much more than regular tobacco flavours.

 

2.  "As I have had some--but very few--recent cigars that seem to break that mold, I remain ever hopeful that Tabacuba can continue to work these strains and locations out and eventually return to the quality present prior to 1997."

-By "quality" I guess you have in mind flavours as opposed to manufacturing quality. 

The locations are more or less the same. Working the strains: I am not very optimistic about the potential. Otherwise people should have noticed significant progress over the last 20 years! My dream is to see the tobacco institute in San Antonio on a limited basis working with the old Corojo and Criollo accepting some years with disease and low yield. With a proper organization, low costs operating in Cuba and the prices charged, I do not see any reason why Habanos shouldn't develope a range of cigars based on the old seeds. May be Habanos are afraid of consumers and dealers finding out how good the old generation cigars were..

3. "One thing than many forget or don't realize is that Crilollo and Corojo were pretty much gone by 1995, and many of the CCs I smoked between 95-98 were absolutely fantastic. At this time it should have been exclusively Havana 92 for filler and binder and Havana 2000 for wrapper"

-Do you have reference on this one?

 

4. "and I believe Sancti Spiritus 96 and Habana Vuelta Arriba may have also been in the mix. Although according to MRN there appeared to be a shift to lighter blends in many cigars"

-At the festival in 1998 I think, (1999?) Habanos presented a Vuelta Arriba cigar to us. A very rustic but milder cigar. At that time I had a feeling this was done with a future US market in mind. Developing a milder dominican strength type cigar and at the same time expanding the area of production. Just my thoughts.

5. "whatever they were doing from 1995 to 1998 was still very, very good--and they apparently did it without Corojo and Criollo."

-To me this simply because they actually used the old types, Corojo and Criollo, tobacco 2 or 3 years old at the time of 1997. Box code 1997 were great old stuff. Box code 1998 represented in general a significant shift towards the new boring era. My few 1998 cigars are still ok, but they always lacked the complexity of the previous years. My 1997 cigars are woody and definitely over the top. I smoked at 96 Lancero and a 97 Monte Especiales last week. Half way through they still presents some of the old rare flavours though. 

 

6. Interestingly, it seems we don't actually know what strains are being planted and where.

-We don't but the right people within the system knows!

 

Right now smoking a cigar of the 2016 harvest from one of the best plantations in San Juan y Martinez, my favourite tobacco area on the planet. However, it will never become a truly great cigar. The harvest of 2012 was great and I see no reason why the harvest of this year should copy 2012. Heading over in December to find out for sure; I am very optimistic!

Looking forward to see what is going on at El Corojo and the Hoyo the Monterrey plantation as well.

Remember those dark oily wrappers coming out of El Corojo?

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

  On 6/30/2017 at 4:24 PM, Ole said:

Working the strains: I am not very optimistic about the potential. Otherwise people should have noticed significant progress over the last 20 years!

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It can take a long time to work out and develop strains and to gather the info as to what strains planted where produce optimal results. Like decades. 20 years is not that much time in the scheme of things. It took over 30 years to develop the original Corojo and Criollo after the Habanensis was developed in 1907. And as noted in this article:

Since Cuba only uses traditional methods of hybridization and cross-pollination, it can take 10 to 12 years to create a new seed variety. But there is an additional two years of testing the seed in the fields around the country.

So just developing new strains takes many years, and of course, we don't even know what difficulties the changing climate is presenting to the tobacco industry, although some speculate the emergence of the blue mold that brought down the Corojo and Criollo is entirely due to climate change. So I do remain hopeful that perhaps within the decade we see a significant improvement, but climate change may have changed things for the medium-to-long term. 

  On 6/30/2017 at 4:24 PM, Ole said:

3. "One thing than many forget or don't realize is that Crilollo and Corojo were pretty much gone by 1995, and many of the CCs I smoked between 95-98 were absolutely fantastic. At this time it should have been exclusively Havana 92 for filler and binder and Havana 2000 for wrapper"

-Do you have reference on this one?

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Yes: http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/a-passion-for-seeds-18248

After re-reading the article, it appears that the claim is that almost all farmers were at least planting the new strains by 1995, but that it's possible that the Criollo wasn't phased out entirely until the late 90s. Several sources claim Corojo was completely phased out by 1997 however. So yes, it's likely that the good flavor quality found in many models in the late 90s were those that still utilized some amount of Criollo. I know I personally noticed the real major nosedive in quality among all marcas around 2000-2001. This seems to coincide with the total elimination of all Criollo from every model, whereas between 1997-1999 there may still have been significant use of Criollo in some models while other models that are notoriously crappy (97-98 Punch Churchills and RyJ Churchills come to mind) may have fully or mostly transitioned to the new strains.

  On 6/30/2017 at 4:24 PM, Ole said:

6. Interestingly, it seems we don't actually know what strains are being planted and where.

-We don't but the right people within the system knows!

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Right, but those people aren't us, and never will be! 

[Fugu]

  On 6/30/2017 at 4:24 PM, Ole said:

Right now smoking a cigar of the 2016 harvest from one of the best plantations in San Juan y Martinez, my favourite tobacco area on the planet

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What is that actually, my I ask, and what do you mean by "a cigar of the the 2016" harvest?

[Ole]

2016 harvest: Planting end 2015 with harvesting early 2016.

Carvajal is a highly respected but fairly unknown farmer in the best area of Pinar del Rio. Here with another merited non-smoking farmer

[Ole]

Have any of you enjoyed a cigar from the 2017 harvest yet?

[Fugu]

  On 10/20/2017 at 8:28 AM, Ole said:

Have any of you enjoyed a cigar from the 2017 harvest yet?

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Still not getting your point, Ole (see my last post...)
A cigar from the '16 or even '17 harvest?! Surely you will know that cigars consist of tobacco of a wider range of harvests? Unless we are talking of farmies perhaps.

[Nino]

  On 10/20/2017 at 12:38 PM, Fugu said:

Still not getting your point, Ole (see my last post...)
A cigar from the '16 or even '17 harvest?! Surely you will know that cigars consist of tobacco of a wider range of harvests? Unless we are talking of farmies perhaps.

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Neither do I and I include farm rolled cigars as well here -  why would I try and smoke tobacco that is hardly dried, just out of the curing barns,  not even fermented yet and needs at least further 2-3 years to become smokeable .... ??

[Ole]

Today 100 mm of rain is expected in Pinar del Rio.

At least that was the forecast as of a week ago. Luckily, it turns out that the potential threat for the young plants is gone. 5mm only has been recorded so far in 2018 with perfect temperatures as well.

It seems like the major vegas planted a little later this year. Let us hope the 2018 harvest turns out as good as 2017.

Unfortunately I have not been able to smoke a cigar from the 2017 harvest yet. That is, I have smoked some peso cigars marked 11/2017. Anybody know for sure if these are based on more than one year old tobacco?

I do not have the necessary experience to do the assessment of cigars like in the picture; a cigar rolled by workers in the plantation based on the present vintage. Although not properly fermented and containing tons of ammonia etc. people with experience are able to analyze the potential.

Just like experienced beer drinkers may say something about how a fresh Westvleteren 12 will develop in the next 3 to 5 years (that beer is more overrated than a Cohiba isn't it). Or the whisky specialist saying something about the richness of the spirit coming right out of the pot stills at Bruichladdich after sunny perfect conditions for the crop. 

At an even earlier stage, a wine maker has plenty of information after harvesting.

And the intensity of the deep green colour of this Criollo 98 leaf provides lots of information to the tobacco grower.

However, at the earliest stage our future pleasure of enjoying a good cigar from the 2018 harvest is decided here:

https://www.accuweather.com/en/cu/pinar-del-rio/125412/december-weather/125412?monyr=12/1/2016&view=table

 

[Ole]

We are through January with less rain than normal and all looks very promising like last year.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/cu/san-juan-y-martinez/119937/january-weather/119937?monyr=1/1/2018&view=table

After late planting at key vegas in San Juan y Martinez we still have a few weeks to go. However, soon we may celebrate another perfect harvest!

Not like at my house at the moment with minus 15 expected next week.

 

[Puro1876]

  On 1/16/2017 at 11:11 PM, Fugu said:

Found the other thread I was referring to:

But anyway. As already mentioned, I don't see that huge an influence of the old Corojo on overall cigar qualities that some attribute to it. That is because, first, in the enduring debate on the proportional sensoric contribution of the wrapper, put me in the camp of those who ascribe comparatively little significance to it with regard to the actual aromatic/flavour contribution (yes, I am aware of experiments of switching wrappers...). That being said, in my opinion, the wrapper quality is indeed very important - but mainly with regard to its burn performance (in unit with the binder). Sure, it may well be capable of adding certain notes and can round off a blend, may even add character at times. But never will it be able to contribute a strong dominating component to the overall sensoric experience, imho.

Second - and this is my main argument here - we mostly forget in this debate that at the same time when the switch in the wrapper variety happened (1994/95 campaign), there also occurred a basic change in the Criollo strain. While Corojo had been replaced by Havana 2000, Criollo had been replaced by Havana 92 in 1995. Therefore, in the finished product, it will be very difficult to tell those two apart in their respective effects on a smoke. The extent of what is attributed to which is really impossible to tell, debatable at the very least.

If we look a bit closer, there seems to be even a bit more indication, that - if any - there might have been a stronger influence by the filler's changing: That is, because due to its longer processing time span, Habana 92 (Criollo) had only been kicking in a bit later in the finished product. While Havana 2000 (Corojo) would have been found in almost the entire production with boxing dates starting end 1995, through 1996 latest, from my understanding of the historic dates, the majority of new filler and binder leaf, in contrast, were to be found earliest about one to two years later in the boxed cigars. If at all, is it possible that exactly this circumstance will have been the reason for so many people considering the time around 1998 as a turning point in tobacco qualities?

What I want to say by this is, I am not dismissing that there may indeed be basic sensoric differences to be detected in the main around that time. But it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to ascribe that to the use of new wrapper leaf, or to its use alone.

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I read your post and it was extremely well written and informative. I wanted to bring a few points to your attention that might have been overlooked.

The first “commercial” plantings of Habana 92 and Havana 2000 were harvested in 1995. (Not all farmers planted these hybrids that year). The finished tobacco from these new hybrids would not have been used to roll cigars until roughly 1998. This was due to the time required for the harvested tobacco to age properly.

Discussions I had in the late 90’s with friends I have in the Cuban government indicated to me that cigars which were boxed in 1995-1997 were still made with the original Corojo and Criollo tobaccos.  However, because of general shortages with Ligero in particular, some of the brands began to experience a slight blend change beginning in 1995-1997. This was done to conserve the remaining original Corojo and Criollo tobacco until the new hybrids were properly aged and ready for use. 

I think people tend to forget that Cuban cigars are made up of a blend of aged tobacco. For example, a premier brand, boxed in 1996 would typically contain the following: 

Wrapper from 1993/1994

Secco from 1992/1993

Ligero from 1991/1992

By 1998 the new hybrid tobacco began to be used in full force, which is why many people notice a major change in flavor beginning in that year.  I just wanted to add these comments to your reply as I thought it pertinent to the topic.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

It’s interesting to hear of the evolution of CC tobacco! It sure seems like a big change in the past 10+ years is so many CC’s being fantastic at 1-3 years old. 

[NSXCIGAR]

Am I the only one who can find hardly anything about the 19 harvest? Weather seemed to have been outstanding once again all season...I'm assuming things are positive, and since this year was purported to have record hectares planted it should be the best crop of the last three which were all outstanding. Three great harvests in a row is a near miraculous occurrence.

[Ole]

  On 6/27/2019 at 6:32 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Three great harvests in a row is a near miraculous occurrence.

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Who is updated on the conditions of the 2019 - 2022 harvests?

Nino?

2016 photo: Cayo Largo

[NSXCIGAR]

  On 7/31/2022 at 6:33 PM, Ole said:

Who is updated on the conditions of the 2019 - 2022 harvests?

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19 was excellent. 20 was average I believe and 21 and 22 were down significantly due to both fertilizer shortages and two warehouse fires. 

[Ole]

BBC on hurricane Ian in Piñar del Rio:

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63036617