Wineador Problem! SOS

[Smokeygun11]

Hello BOTL/SOTL

I have recently brought my second wineador and i have been having some problem with both of them. I keep my wineador temp at 64-65 with both heartfelt beads and boveda packs at 65 rh. Yesterday i opened up my windows to air out my house cuz ive been running the ac non stop for a week now (its been hot as hell here in NY). Today when i came back from work i noticed that my temp was 69-71 (whcih isnt that high but still i like to keep mine a 66-68 range) but worse the rh had dropped to 58. im pretty sure that my hygrometers are calibrated but just in case i bought two new one and a calibraton kid from boveda. My question why the sudden rh drop and do i have too little cedar in my wineador. i have one drawer and shelf on the bottom of the wineador and boxes stacked to the top of both. I've only had my wineadors for about two year now fairly new subject for me. Can someone more experienced please chime in. 

[PigFish]

I just got done telling another what was wrong with his humidor and he called me names (private humor that you won't likely get).... -LOL Let's see what the membership has to say and if you are in need of further advice, and I can stop sniffling, I will see what I can do!

Not today though, Piggy's advice window is closed today!!! -LOL

Okay, I cannot resist! Your problem resides in cycle rate and a likely rise in ambient temperature. More later, if you are interested!

-Piggy

[Fugu]

rH-drop has been induced by your temp rise in conjunction with passive humidification. That's what those experts in this forum would say, who are to lazy to answer simple questions today...haha 

[LGC]

Try searching the forums and doing a little homework and research. Ray has provided more than enough information on many occasions to allow you to formulate a solution.

[PigFish]

1 minute ago, Fugu said:

rH-drop has been induced by your temp rise in conjunction with passive humidification. That's what those experts in this forum would say, who are to lazy to answer simple questions today...haha 

... you a-hole you are trying to get me trouble today aren't you??? (read with levity)

I am already in hot water with Bwana and I am trying to stay under the radar!!! Lazy... (huff...) I don't even have to put in an effort to get a thread like this shut down....! -LOL

(Sorry OP, I know you are new here. Welcome to the forum and forgive a little inside cronyism.) -Piggy

[Fugu]

Sorry Ray, I am just in the mood for a little teasing and couldn't resist. (too much working this week, I guess)

[Smokeygun11]

Lmaoooo you guys are great. So basically PigFish as long as i reduce the Ambient temp i should be ok? I turned the ac on as soon as i got home. I think i have enought beads and boveda pack for three wienador not two lol. Cna never be too careful. 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Smokeygun11 said:

Lmaoooo you guys are great. So basically PigFish as long as i reduce the Ambient temp i should be ok? I turned the ac on as soon as i got home. I think i have enought beads and boveda pack for three wienador not two lol. Cna never be too careful. 

... wait until I start to be critical of your humidor before you judge!!! -LOL

Yes that will help. Before I forget, the water that was removed by your cycling is going somewhere. I suggest you look for it and make sure you don't have a pool somewhere in your humidor!!!

All humidors are in some way 'driven' by the ambient conditions of their location. In a case where passive systems are used, you humidor is not only driven, but controlled by your ambient. I told another member that 'passive' systems (I am paraphrasing) are dependent on 'luck' and he (I assume it was a he) got all pissy at me! Yet in my mind, one either controls or is controlled. A situation of happiness based on the control of a force outside of your own, is a 'luck' based system as far as I am concerned. I hope that you don't take offense to that. It is not designed to offend anyone, it is just my position.

Back to you and your case, if you are happy with the answer, I will go no further. I have been deemed 'lazy' by my friend Gooey up there, overworked as he may be, and I am happy if you are.

If not, I have run a video demonstration for you, one that still requires a cycle or two and my approval to upload if you are interested. I have also started a data log for you so that you can see a demonstration of what I am talking about graphically. What I have done is go into the shop and pull the plug on my active humidifier and other active devices in my test humidor. With that, the cycles of declining average rH are being graphed for you as the cooler cycles on and off. I hope to show you a visual decline in the ambient rH of the humidor to demonstrate passive humidification principles and flaws.

If you are not interested in such a demonstration, I won't bother to post it here and now. If you find it critical and personal, let me know and I will leave you with the data given and go back to being lazy!!!

Best of luck on your projects! -Piggy

PS: if I present data that you don't like, don't blame me, you asked for it!!! -LOL (read with good humor please, and welcome to the forum).

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Sorry Ray, I am just in the mood for a little teasing and couldn't resist. (too much working this week, I guess)

... bring it on, I can take it! -R

[PigFish]

5 minutes ago, Bster said:

Great info as usual Piggy, looks like you 'bit the bullet' from the Darwin Awards thread.... I really need to get more serious about my long-term storage solution. Cooladors etc are just not cutting it for me with very long term aging in mind. Will get in touch and run an idea by you if you can spare some time. Whenever suits you... and I can take the 'Piggy' style of 'advice'

 

... what I am here for my friend. Anytime! -R

[Smokeygun11]

8 hours ago, PigFish said:

... wait until I start to be critical of your humidor before you judge!!! -LOL

Yes that will help. Before I forget, the water that was removed by your cycling is going somewhere. I suggest you look for it and make sure you don't have a pool somewhere in your humidor!!!

All humidors are in some way 'driven' by the ambient conditions of their location. In a case where passive systems are used, you humidor is not only driven, but controlled by your ambient. I told another member that 'passive' systems (I am paraphrasing) are dependent on 'luck' and he (I assume it was a he) got all pissy at me! Yet in my mind, one either controls or is controlled. A situation of happiness based on the control of a force outside of your own, is a 'luck' based system as far as I am concerned. I hope that you don't take offense to that. It is not designed to offend anyone, it is just my position.

Back to you and your case, if you are happy with the answer, I will go no further. I have been deemed 'lazy' by my friend Gooey up there, overworked as he may be, and I am happy if you are.

If not, I have run a video demonstration for you, one that still requires a cycle or two and my approval to upload if you are interested. I have also started a data log for you so that you can see a demonstration of what I am talking about graphically. What I have done is go into the shop and pull the plug on my active humidifier and other active devices in my test humidor. With that, the cycles of declining average rH are being graphed for you as the cooler cycles on and off. I hope to show you a visual decline in the ambient rH of the humidor to demonstrate passive humidification principles and flaws.

If you are not interested in such a demonstration, I won't bother to post it here and now. If you find it critical and personal, let me know and I will leave you with the data given and go back to being lazy!!!

Best of luck on your projects! -Piggy

PS: if I present data that you don't like, don't blame me, you asked for it!!! -LOL (read with good humor please, and welcome to the forum).

Which part should I reply to first lol. I don't take offense in you telling me about me not being in control and that's it's a passive system. 

You really blew me away when you started saying you have charts and controlled expirements and stuff lol. I could hardly keep up with what you said here so more data and stuff would probably confuse me as I'm not a science person. 

What I do understand though is that the passive system I currently have is a lot more dependent on the ambient temp than I originally thought. But answer me this pigfish isn't boveda packs and beads suppose to be a active system that's suppose to take away and give humidity as is needed ( at least that's how it's advertised as).  Also I keep a one slot of space between my cigars and the bottoms for that exact reason, I dot want the condensation to touch my cigars. I check on it regularly and some times it's there sometimes not. Funny thing is the new one I bought( the top one) trickles more than the bottom one ( the old one). They are both the same model idk why it's doing that. 

In conclusion for my instants I should be ok is I keep the ambient temp somewhat constant? ( sorry if making you dumb it down for me is a pain). Since yesterday the Rh and temp seem to have stabilized. Waiting on new hygrometers that are more consistent. 

[LordAnubis]

So what you're saying is. Your ambient temperature went up... so your fridge started running its cooling function more... more cooling means more condensation on the cooling coils or plate, which means less moisture in the air. Your passive humidifying systems aren't instant... it will take them time to readjust the moisture content of the system, regardless of how excessive amount of beads you have for the volume of your space. It still takes time.

Is that about right Piglet?

[backbone]

And with a bead only system you will have to replace the water that the fridge removes from the air inside from its cycling.

Some people spray the beads, some put a shot glass of distilled water in there for a day, some people use an active device (oasis, etc.)

 

[Fugu]

13 hours ago, PigFish said:

... bring it on, I can take it! -R

Knew that!

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, Smokeygun11 said:

But answer me this pigfish isn't boveda packs and beads suppose to be a active system that's suppose to take away and give humidity as is needed ( at least that's how it's advertised as)

Indeed, it is (Boveda yes). But, as Mus already said, it is a matter of time constants of the different processes involved and the area of the respective active exchange surfaces. Can't expect wonders. Much slower in response than a 'true', controlled (actively regulated) humidification system. But you are doing good indeed to direct this question to Pigfish, who will hopefully feel refreshed today !

[PigFish]

Off to the shop to download a data logger on the test box. You will see exactly what I am talking about shortly. Stay tuned! -P

(In an nutshell, yes Mus!)

[Smokeygun11]

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm currently at work work gonna check it when I get home. You guys/gals have been  great help. 

[Smokeygun11]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

Off to the shop to download a data logger on the test box. You will see exactly what I am talking about shortly. Stay tuned! -P

(In an nutshell, yes Mus!)

Only thing is pig will have to walk me through the data logger etc. I'm a noob when it comes to science lol

[GasGuy82]

Obviously I defer to Piggy on all such matters. I can only hope to one day have a system that holds a candle to his. That said, living in Northern California with low humidity and high heat, I found that an active air circulation system is my best friend. Any time I have found my temp/rh settings to run askew, its generally due to my circulation system not performing as it should. In my case, I use two small battery operated fans designed to recirculate air within and RV fridge. These have been strategically placed, one facing forward and one backward on the floor of my wineador ultimately pushing air upward.

[PigFish]

Now for the caveats: this is not exactly the way your system is running of course. While I disconnected active rH control in the box for the test, I still run a lot of circulation in the humidor. Circulation is very important to a precision humidor. Keep in mind also that I run compressor coolers. I am not going on and on about this, but there is a difference in efficiency. Lastly, it is 90+F in my shop! The day I ran this, it was ranging from 90 to 92F. I don't suggest you try this at home (I am a professional -LOL). You will likely end up with toasted cigars!

The lesson, and I am surprised that Gooey did not directly mention it, is largely based on hysteresis. Hysteresis (you can look it up) is a general lag time, or reaction time to an applied change. Humidor theory requires a lot of understanding of this principle. Blah, blah... blah!

An active appliance is subject to your own definition. So that we are on the same page, active to me means 'forced.' Active "cooking" would be via the use of a stove or oven. Passive cooking would be dependent on ambient conditions or simply the laws of physics. Put your bread in the hot sun, on a heated stone and it just might get cooked! Then again, it might not. Hysteresis often relies on the 'force' applied. The greater the 'force' the greater the push on an object to change.

So here is the chart:

I don't want to write a tome here so you will have to study it a bit on your own. I started the data logger (a computer issue forced a restart of this in process) after the experiment started and time moves left to right.

The light colored lines represent the set point of the humidor. The set points of course should the principle focus of where your humidor resides, or you don't have a controlled humidor!

The 'sharks fin' saw tooth graph represents the real-time condition (rH) in the humidor. You will note that the dehydration cycle coincides with the refrigerator cycle. You will also note the recovery time to return the humidor back to normal, and in fact it never again reaches the 'normal' or the set point once the experiment is started. Note as well, the decay of the condition of the humidor AND the gradual drying of the humidor based on the decline of the average rH lines and the average of the max-rH line. This is important as it directly relates to your problem!

The arrows represent the average hi, low and combined showing where your humidor resides in terms of actual rH, not what a less than real-time hygrometer might show you... This tells it all as far as I am concerned.

Lastly a little dead horse beating! I have said over and over again that the settings of 65/65 are likely (to my taste at least) too wet for Cuban cigars. I am talking in absolutes... not in misrepresentations given by low resolution hygrometers!!! Look at this chart. If one's settings in the passive rH wine cooler are such that this cycle occurs, then guess what, you are not storing at 65/65 at all. You are storing much dryer than that in actuality. This means a couple of things. Settings don't really matter, if you are happy! And that many of my brothers rely on 'luck' in order to store their cigars as they, in reality, have no control over the rH set point.

My friend, I hope his data helps you store cigars better, and better understand your system.

Cheers! -Ray

[PigFish]

36 minutes ago, Smokeygun11 said:

Only thing is pig will have to walk me through the data logger etc. I'm a noob when it comes to science lol

... that's what I am here for!

One question at a time is best, I can get pretty wordy!!! -R

[Smokeygun11]

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

3 minutes ago, PigFish said:

... that's what I am here for!

One question at a time is best, I can get pretty wordy!!! -R

Thanks for everything piggy. I can see you put a lot of work into this. Zelda of it makes my brain hurt lol

[PigFish]

Let me know if I can help, now off to my horses! -Piggy

[Fugu]

55 minutes ago, PigFish said:

The lesson, and I am surprised that Gooey did not directly mention it, is largely based on hysteresis.

haha, that's what I actually did, when saying:

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

it is a matter of time constants of the different processes...

time constants of different processes implying we have to deal with time-lags of different processes, leading to a combined timed reaction - i.e. hysteresis of the system.

And, as a side note, a non-marginal one that is: We should not forget (not sure how you did run your very experiment Ray, in an empty or filled humidor) - with our cigars, we have a natural passive "humidification" mass / means in addition to the technical system. Cigars will tend to balance and buffer a part of the observed variability. A brief, i.e. short-term dimple in rH is really uncritical in a full humidor, as - hysteresis in play, exactly! - tobacco manufactured into odd compact rolls... and rather tightly packed in boxes won't react as fast as the humidor atmosphere (and rH-gauges) will do. We have to keep in mind, we do measure physical conditions in a rapid-response atmosphere (=gas) NOT actual moisture of the slow-response tobacco (solid matter with a comparat. high thermal and hygroscopic inertia).

So, unless really extreme conditions would occur, I'd still be very relaxed if this was limited to a certain short-term humidity fluctuation. Much more critical would be longer periods of several days to weeks, as cigars would then be given a chance to follow the trend and would in turn permanently and repeatedly lose and gain moisture. Therefore, time constants (periodicity) of processes are indeed the critical part here, being as important as the actual extent (amplitude) of fluctuations! That being said, it's quite the opposite with temperature: Temp should be kept as constant as possible and, if at all, only be given a chance to slowly and gently change on a longer periodic!

 

[PigFish]

A couple points.

My humidors are lined with plastic, not wood. Controlling "various stuff" along with cigars is an impediment (IMHO). I say this because I believe in being able to adjust my storage to my wants. A gallon of water tied up in a wood humidor is not my idea of control. It may be an aid (as suggested) to maintaining and ordered existence once that existence has been established. At any other time, it just slows the process adherence to a different set point down.

Yet in this example, I would have no recovery at all if it were not for the cigars inside. There is also about 6lb of desiccant in there as well. This humidor is in fact a working humidor. It has 15 boxes in it, my frauds collection and the aforementioned beads. If I am fooling with beads (beaded desiccant) I don't like to leave them about the shop so I park them in here. This is a 'catch all' for cigar items and things that I don't want dusty in the shop. There are 3 data loggers in there, just so that their sensors don't over dry.

That being said, I use a different approach than most humidor makers. I don't rely on the 'crutch' of a mass of supportive hygroscopic material to 'support' a controlled system. I run on a theory of "space" control. It states if I cannot control the space, with or without cigars (supportive hygroscopic material) then I cannot in turn control the cigars. I am therefore once more dependent on 'luck.' Luck, is not a part of my engineering nor design. The humidor does work somewhat differently empty, and full. Whereas most humidor makers rely on full (supportive materials) mine actually work very well empty! Frankly, they are more precise when empty. Masses of material slow down the process and interfere with precision. Yet, control of the cigar is the purpose of the humidor and not the control of space alone. The humidor must then work full or empty.

In actuality, humidor makers rely on "full" to "mask" poor function. While many of their humidors break down when empty, when full, they have problems as well. Circulation becomes a real problem when a humidor is too full. I believe  a humidor really should never be filled beyond 75%. Yes, I break the rule regularly.

No one should be trying to store cigars in a 90˚F ambient. While no one is commenting about it here, you cannot really believe how impressive it is (unless you are a controlled humidor maker) that I can pull this off. I have safely stored cigars in 100˚F ambients! Yes, in a $140 USD, 10 year old compressor wine cooler I can store cigars at 70/60, and I have done it to 100F.

Unless you are a humidor maker, you cannot even imagine how incredibly cool and robust this is...

I have some companion videos that I made along with lectures on the process (of this experiment). If they are not too corny, I will post them to YouBoob!

Oh, I know you mentioned hysteresis, just not by name. That is what I was implying! Good to have your input as always Goo! -R