Do you still remmeber El Corojo tobacco.

[cigaraholic]

To be a little clearer, what I miss isn't the strength of the "old" cigars, it's the intensity of flavor they had. I started smoking CC's the Summer of 1970 and have done my best to destroy as much of Castro's tobacco as my wallet could handle. I never thought about aging anything, I just bought, smoked and repeated. The idea that those older cigars were unsmokeable because they were too strong is news to me......of course I was younger then ?.

Yes, there was the occasional box of Monte 2's and Lusitania's that were real powerhouses, but that just ment after I smoked one I was done smoking for the day. Would they have improved with age, yes, but they were delicious ROTT.

I never had to worry about getting a "good" box of cigars until the leaf switch.

I also haven't experienced this new leaf transition into the Stilton cheese quality with extended age that the "old" leaf does.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, cigaraholic said:

To be a little clearer, what I miss isn't the strength of the "old" cigars, it's the intensity of flavor they had. I started smoking CC's the Summer of 1970 and have done my best to destroy as much of Castro's tobacco as my wallet could handle. I never thought about aging anything, I just bought, smoked and repeated. The idea that those older cigars were unsmokeable because they were too strong is news to me......of course I was younger then ?.

Yes, there was the occasional box of Monte 2's and Lusitania's that were real powerhouses, but that just ment after I smoked one I was done smoking for the day. Would they have improved with age, yes, but they were delicious ROTT.

I never had to worry about getting a "good" box of cigars until the leaf switch.

I also haven't experienced this new leaf transition into the Stilton cheese quality with extended age that the "old" leaf does.

Pretty much my sentiments exactly here. 

Intensity is definitely the word here, not necessarily strength. Very concentrated and present. Rich. Opposite of bland. Also, the flavors were much more easily discernible to me, more distinct. The earthiness--pow, right there. The fruitiness, bam, couldn't miss it. Smoking a RyJ Ex 4 was like eating a bowl of tropical fruit. Not "fruity notes"--actual fruit explosion, like candy. Had to try one to believe it. Rich like you wouldn't believe.

As far as the strength, if you liked a strong cigar, none of them were "unsmokeable." But a cigar like a Boli CE, PSD4, Monte 2 or SS1 would be a real adventure. Those who prefer milder blends would not really enjoy it, and it may have ostensibly been unsmokeable for them. And yes, Bolivar didn't not need much, if any age. Monte was pretty much good to go, same with Partagas. I recall Punch was one that seemed to really benefit from a few years, with the tannic flavor kind of transitioning into the tangy flavor.

As far as consistency and quality, I agree--I cannot remember encountering a "bad" box prior to 98. I recall buying many, many boxes of Boli RC that were 24/25 perfect. Perfect burn, draw, flavor--never a worry about hunting codes, other than avoiding the provincial factory codes.

2 hours ago, Orion21 said:

This discussion is so interesting because all of these attributes you all are associating with this Corojo leaf makes me think of Non-Cuban cigars from 2005-2013/14.  If you are into the Non-Cuban scene NC producers would advertise their cigars that were made with Cuban seed Corojo.  Now, the NC production process is much different than the Cuban process because many NC producers got in the habit of aging their leaf much longer than Cuba.  But the attributes you are discussing remind me so much of NC cigars from that time period.  Just strong in your face smokes.  

NC cigars using Cuban seed and/or Corojo always had a singular problem, particularly Dominican and Honduran NCs. It was very difficult to deliver any kind of strength or flavor without a terrible harshness. I think this issue has improved over the last 20 years with Fuente being the first to really make ground there. Production of the more full-flavored cigars also shifting to Nicaragua helped as well--it seems that soil and climate is superior to reduce that harshness. But Cuban seed tobacco grown outside of Vuelta Abajo means nothing, IMO. It's quite simply all about the soil and climate of the region. Even within Cuba there is huge variance in quality of tobacco grown, using the same strains.

 

10 hours ago, Fugu said:

... and a SS1 you could still taste foul in your mouth four days after smoking....nice.

Count me in the camp of those being very sorry about the loss of vitolas, but not too much missing the good old times with regard to tobacco. But this is a personal thing, I admit, the newer strains just seem to suit my tastes better, I don't like too much strength and overpowering in a cigar.

But everything only a shadow of its former self, due to the loss of old Corojo? Sorry guys, I don't buy it. Think about Partagas Serie du Connaisseur prior to its discontinuation, just as one example. Boli Esp. No. 2 ER, La Escepcion SF - secretly made with Corojo leaf? It seems it still is possible to blend intense smokes without it. And Corojo has been used predominantly for the wrapper anyway, and we perhaps have to attribute the reported changes rather to the replacement of the old Criollo strains (which had been in use since end of the 1940s) by Criollo 98 and 99?

I haven't smoked a very wide array of the pre-1998 production, but I am happy, and I guess even happier with how it is today.

Sounds like you definitely prefer the milder characteristics of the Habana 2000, which is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not arguing that it's inferior objectively (subjectively I do) but I personally prefer strong, rich cigars. I can tell you that having smoked many 98-04 Party SdC they were not the same as the mid-90s. I also smoked plenty of Boli Esp #2 and they tasted like good, modern Bolivar--not the old. I haven't had a Boli up to the old standards since 97-98, and I can tell you without a doubt it was unmistakable in character.

As an aside, it's also my conjecture that Corojo had much better combustion properties than Habana 2000. I never had the degree of wonky burn issues in the old days as I find now. Only occasionally did I even need to touch up the light. They also remained lit much longer. I recall putting down my 94-97 Boli RCs for what had to be 10-15 minutes many times and upon coming back to it it would be burning bright after 3-4 puffs again. It was quite remarkable--not sure if anyone else here experienced that. I also used to play around and light just half of the foot of the cigar initially and I'd watch as it just corrected itself and took off, with a razor sharp burn the rest of the way. Don't try that today.