the second greatest batsman of all time?


Recommended Posts

most cricket fans usually consider about 20 test innings enough to start being seriously in contention for a place in history, though with so much cricket these days, perhaps we should extend that a bit. on that basis, we have a new contender for the greatest or indeed, second greatest batsman the game has ever seen.

now, please do not think i am suggesting this is the case. but it does show how stats can distort things.

every cricket fan knows that don bradman, with his average of an extraordinary 99.94 (over 52 tests, 80 innings), is the greatest batsman the game has ever seen and often argued as the most dominant sportsman who ever lived (the only two i can think of who challenge this are heather mckay and walter lindrum). daylight second, third and a lot more places.

and yet, we have a batsman now playing his 18th test innings and averaging over 100. even if he is dismissed on his current score and gets a duck in the second innings, he'll still be averaging 86, after 20 innings, making him far away in second place.

that player?

adam voges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The selectors have long been a disgrace. I'm sick of the **** they conjur up.

A couple of years ago I went to a breakfast function and John Inverarity was sitting next to me - it took every ounce of decorum I could muster to not bring up some of the selection panel's ridiculous form. Their decisions reek of sabotage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ken, it is a fun read, but let's face it, Adam Voges is ancient and can't have that much cricket left in him, and lots of his scores - especially his biggest, were scored against below-par sides such as the Windies. Well done to him but if he could say get 50 tests under his belt (if his age allows) then the average would start to mean a bit more. If he was a serious no.2 to Bradman then he would have been selected far early in his career and gone on to properly stake his place amongst cricket's greatest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ken, it is a fun read, but let's face it, Adam Voges is ancient and can't have that much cricket left in him, and lots of his scores - especially his biggest, were scored against below-par sides such as the Windies. Well done to him but if he could say get 50 tests under his belt (if his age allows) then the average would start to mean a bit more. If he was a serious no.2 to Bradman then he would have been selected far early in his career and gone on to properly stake his place amongst cricket's greatest.

as i said, don't think i am suggesting this. it is just what the figures show. though he has now posted another double century.

agreed re earlier in his career. he was serviceable. occasionally good, sometimes far less so. if i recall, he even swapped states at one stage (or twice) to revive the career. his first class average is good - about 48 i think. but he does get a heap of not outs.

you can argue that a player like mike hussey, so good and yet could not get into the team until his 30s, was someone who deserved a spot but was fairly kept out - that was when we had a stellar team and it really was impossible to drop someone - but not so of late. if voges was truly such a star, he'd have been there quite a few years ago.

still, good luck to him for taking his chance and doing so well. and he has had some luck - clean bowled in this innings at 7 and the ump calls no ball when it was not even close - now more than 200 runs later....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm really enjoying seeing Voges do what he is doing. He is a man who has sharpened his blade over many years of first class cricket and is now doing it for Australia.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm with ya Dicko. I don't care how old he is, he's making runs and he's not a dickhead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are good enough, who cares what age. look at peyton manning, don bradman, allan border, ken rosewall, artie beetson et al.

good on him.

and yes, how nice to have someone not being an idiot.

that said, i'm not enamoured of his style - so what if hee is scoring runs. but he has arrived at a time when we are seeing usman and there is a man that can bat like an angel. he'd put most to shame, for style, at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ken, it is a fun read, but let's face it, Adam Voges is ancient and can't have that much cricket left in him, and lots of his scores - especially his biggest, were scored against below-par sides such as the Windies. Well done to him but if he could say get 50 tests under his belt (if his age allows) then the average would start to mean a bit more. If he was a serious no.2 to Bradman then he would have been selected far early in his career and gone on to properly stake his place amongst cricket's greatest.

He's mid 30's so he could have a couple or 3 years left in him yet. Which might get him another 15 to 25 tests (haven't checked the schedule)

But surely he's no threat to Bradman long term? Perhaps technically in average only if he retires next week! I think he now has 19 innings so only needs to bat in the second innings in Wellington (if we have to bat again), make a few not out or whatever, then top Bradman in the Wisden cricket averages. Then retire!

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282910.html

If he keeps making runs and stays fit, he deserves to stay in the side regardless of his age. We've a lengthening list of success stories here with players who have had to wait, think Voges, Hayden, Hussey, Harris and Rogers (and you could even throw Khawaja in if you wanted, even though he's a fair bit younger) and have many 1st class innings or overs under their belt before their Test debut (or in Khawaja's case - his recall).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are good enough, who cares what age. look at peyton manning, don bradman, allan border, ken rosewall, artie beetson et al.

good on him.

and yes, how nice to have someone not being an idiot.

that said, i'm not enamoured of his style - so what if hee is scoring runs. but he has arrived at a time when we are seeing usman and there is a man that can bat like an angel. he'd put most to shame, for style, at least.

chalk and cheese complement each other I reckon Ken. Khawaja is in fine form no doubt and I'm happy to see him back and now cemented in the team.

Imagine a few years down the track if Khawaja's scoring a 1000 a year, with Warner still on the straight and narrow and making runs, and Smith doing what he's been doing recently. There's the makings of a dynamic top order.

Let's just wait for the selectors to stuff it up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

chalk and cheese complement each other I reckon Ken. Khawaja is in fine form no doubt and I'm happy to see him back and now cemented in the team.

Imagine a few years down the track if Khawaja's scoring a 1000 a year, with Warner still on the straight and narrow and making runs, and Smith doing what he's been doing recently. There's the makings of a dynamic top order.

Let's just wait for the selectors to stuff it up!

undoubtedly.

anyone caught regularly scoring runs will be immediately dismissed from the team!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, well if we think Adam Voges took a long time to debut, what about how long it took for Chris Rogers to play his second test? His assured play as an opener was the perfect foil for David Warner, I don't think Joe Burns is a long-term opener. I wish Rogers played on a little longer.

Rob, the selectors seem to pick on who they favour, hence why Sean Marsh and Shane Watson continue/d to be picked and why Mitchell Marsh is holding on to his spot when he needs to realise he is a better test bowler than batsman. I still believe that if Mike Hussey played in England in 2005 then Australia would have won the Ashes that year, but the selectors persevered with Simon Katich as they felt they owed him for contracting chicken pox prior to the 2004 Sri Lanka tour. As we know, Hussey debuted immediately after this series against the West Indies and preceded to have a test average of 90 in no time. Heck, the guy still is outstanding in T20 (like Ken though, I don't care for this side of the game as I do for test cricket - call me 'traditionalist')

In regards to second best batsman after Bradman, in my opinion I find it hard to split Sir Garfield Sobers or Graeme Pollock, although I value the English openers Herbert Sutcliffe and Sir Jack Hobbs for having such high averages (around 60 and 57 respectively) during their era when pitches were uncovered.

Voges is a fine player, a first-class average of 47 attests to this (compare Sean Marsh and Mitchell Marsh), and I am hopeful he will play as much test cricket as possible. It's a shame the same grace wasn't extended by the selectors to players such as Brad Hodge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, well if we think Adam Voges took a long time to debut, what about how long it took for Chris Rogers to play his second test? His assured play as an opener was the perfect foil for David Warner, I don't think Joe Burns is a long-term opener. I wish Rogers played on a little longer.

Rob, the selectors seem to pick on who they favour, hence why Sean Marsh and Shane Watson continue/d to be picked and why Mitchell Marsh is holding on to his spot when he needs to realise he is a better test bowler than batsman. I still believe that if Mike Hussey played in England in 2005 then Australia would have won the Ashes that year, but the selectors persevered with Simon Katich as they felt they owed him for contracting chicken pox prior to the 2004 Sri Lanka tour. As we know, Hussey debuted immediately after this series against the West Indies and preceded to have a test average of 90 in no time. Heck, the guy still is outstanding in T20 (like Ken though, I don't care for this side of the game as I do for test cricket - call me 'traditionalist')

In regards to second best batsman after Bradman, in my opinion I find it hard to split Sir Garfield Sobers or Graeme Pollock, although I value the English openers Herbert Sutcliffe and Sir Jack Hobbs for having such high averages (around 60 and 57 respectively) during there era when pitches were uncovered.

Voges is a fine player, a first-class average of 47 attests to this (compare Sean Marsh and Mitchell Marsh), and I am hopeful he will play as much test cricket as possible. It's a shame the same grace wasn't extended by the selectors to players such as Brad Hodge.

lot of good points, john.

for me though, rogers went a game or two too late. his batting towards the end of the last series in england screamed of a bloke who had had enough. it was irresponsible and extremely costly.

yes, had hussey in the back of my mind with some of the comments. extraordinary that he started after 30. burns better suited to 3 or 4 but at the moment, no space there with usman and smith. and he is probably a good option for the long form so with some patience, if the selectors can hold their nerve, i think it could be a success.

ah watto. i see he is out of his next tournament thanks to yet another injury. there is a shocker.

as for 'second', no possible suggestion voges is it. by chance, over chrissy/new year, was having a great debate over a greatest of all time team with some mates - inclding a former pommy test player. i had pollock at 4. i was howled down, though eventually got the pom to concede. one bloke, my age and a very keen cricketer had little idea who he was. i actually saw him live when a little kid - it was a double wicket comp at the gabba. to teams from four countries. from memory, lawry and mckenzie as one and chappell and walters as the other for us, kanhai and griffith and then sobers and hall for the windies, the two pollocks and i think eddie barlow and ? for the south africans (interestingly, the south africans were welcome but a rhodesian was banned - colin bland as coming over to field (apparently the greatest fieldsman of all time) and for the poms, trueman, cowdrey i think. possibly milburn. and ?

what a day.

the pollocks beat sobers/hall in the final.

i remember my dad (he and i went with his best mate, ken archer and his son - ken was a former test player, of course) saying at the beginning of the day, watch the timing and the placement of greame pollock. he was right. sublime.

from memory, my top team was

hobbs

b richards

bradman

g pollock

can't recall who i had here. will have a think.

sobers

gilchrist

warne

lillee

marshall

akram

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just been googling best ever cricketers.

found a site where people pick their best ever teams.

and these people are viciously adamant that these are the best ever teams and cannot be beaten.

i gave up after i found afredi in one team - yes, in a best ever test team. but that pales - i found glenn maxwell in one team. i kid you not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ken, the references to Watto, Afridi and Maxwell drew a good chuckle here, especially Afridi! In your XI I'd take a good guess for Viv Richards on account of how his aggressive batting intimidated opposition bowlers and contributed to test victories for WI as much as their four-pronged pace attack. Plus, he was one of the 5 Wisden cricketers of the 20th century. What a group of players you saw at the Gabba, truly amazing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ken, the references to Watto, Afridi and Maxwell drew a good chuckle here, especially Afridi! In your XI I'd take a good guess for Viv Richards on account of how his aggressive batting intimidated opposition bowlers and contributed to test victories for WI as much as their fur-pronged pace attack. Plus, he was one of the 5 Wisden cricketers of the 20th century. What a group of players you saw at the Gabba, truly amazing!

john, it was an amazing day.

i think i had richards in ahead of tendulkar (which will mean i'll never again get a visa to the sub-continent) with allan border if it was a battle for my life.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

just been googling best ever cricketers.

found a site where people pick their best ever teams.

and these people are viciously adamant that these are the best ever teams and cannot be beaten.

i gave up after i found afredi in one team - yes, in a best ever test team. but that pales - i found glenn maxwell in one team. i kid you not.

I'm guessing the one that had Glenn Maxwell in his team, either had the username 'maxwellg', or 'thebigshow', or was 15 years old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Half off topic (he did scare batsmen!) and I can't remember if this has already been posted in another thread, but i crack up each time I watch.

They don't make 'em like they used to!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.