Humidor help..

[CUBANO]

I keep my portable a/c at 71dF and humidity is between 66-68 inside humidor and the room

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[Rye]

To put it simply, from what I gather your picks are fighting your beads, and everything is saturated. Try with an additional pound of beads, and ditch the pucks.

Put the fresh beads in without adding any moisture, and see if one regulates the other at a happier medium. I really do advocate the use of Spanish cedar to act as a buffer and regulator as well, but that's coming from a cigar loving carpenter, not a scientist

[PigFish]

To put it simply, from what I gather your picks are fighting your beads, and everything is saturated. Try with an additional pound of beads, and ditch the pucks.

Put the fresh beads in without adding any moisture, and see if one regulates the other at a happier medium. I really do advocate the use of Spanish cedar to act as a buffer and regulator as well, but that's coming from a cigar loving carpenter, not a scientist

You bring up an interesting perspective. The only problem with more hygroscopic material is if you let it get out of control as well. I was once a believer in wood in humidors. I am not as much anymore. It is not that I don't like wood, but I am a control freak and I can control solid surfaces (non-hygroscopic) surfaces much better than the hygroscopic ones.

I tend to like to only drive one hygroscopic material in my humidor. I will lump cigars and their containers into that category. I use beads as a buffer and heat sink, I can control them.

Wood should be a good thing and generally is, but if you oversaturate you humidor, and your wood gets 'soaked' you only have a bigger problem to undo.

Just my 2 cts!

Cheers! -Piggy

[canadianbeaver]

"Open, only if the ambient rH is lower outside. Raise temp, surely (MHO). Refrigerating your cigars is causing you havoc. I define refrigerating as attempting to drive the temp of cigars below that of about 70dF, say 19C."

Thank you for your generous advice and time to type all this info out Pig. You should get paid by the word.

If I am attempting to drive the temp below 70, how else can I get to the sacred 65/65 other than hiding the coffin (which it would it would basically would be if I unplugged it) under the basement stairs?

My fridge only goes up to 69 degrees by the way. Hence "fridge". But damn if it isn't stunning looking! It is a Liebherr.

This plugging the hole which my brothers speak of. What of that?

CB

[Optic101]

Have a look at this one.

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113910

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/unplug-drain-refrigerator-21433.html

[canadianbeaver]

Thank you Optic!

[Maxsi]

Is the Vintec Thermoelectric or compressor ? If it's comp then that's the problem, I would say.

[PigFish]

"Open, only if the ambient rH is lower outside. Raise temp, surely (MHO). Refrigerating your cigars is causing you havoc. I define refrigerating as attempting to drive the temp of cigars below that of about 70dF, say 19C."

Thank you for your generous advice and time to type all this info out Pig. You should get paid by the word.

If I am attempting to drive the temp below 70, how else can I get to the sacred 65/65 other than hiding the coffin (which it would it would basically would be if I unplugged it) under the basement stairs?

My fridge only goes up to 69 degrees by the way. Hence "fridge". But damn if it isn't stunning looking! It is a Liebherr.

This plugging the hole which my brothers speak of. What of that?

CB

Lisa, you are forcing me into myth busting mode, you know that don't you?

What is sacred about 65/65… Not a damn thing! Not that I am going to run down another's opinion but that is the way I see it.

Lisa I talk to a lot of smokers about cigar storage. I ask almost everyone to tell me why he/she stores the way they do and most cannot answer the question. There is no correct answer, but there are logical ones. The answer I get most often is that the numbers xx/yy seem to be a consensus of opinion. Or, "I read it somewhere." Then, usually I get, "… I trust what you are telling me is right, what do you do?" Or, "What should I do?"

Cigar smokers then, many of them are looking for good advice and not always getting it. I warn against blindly following anyone. Even me!

Now how did the 65/65 thing start? I am betting that most of it was a byproduct of people attempting to build wine cooler humidors. A lot of these will not run at temperatures above 65-66dF. There is your magic number. The logic is like this… "Since I cannot get a different number, I will pick one!" That is my speculation on where the number came from.

There is another potential source and that is official Habanos literature. In Habanos literature they make a claim about the storage conditions in the Escaparate is between 16 and 18C.

One of these days I am going to write and analysis and article on this very topic, but it is not today… I can say only this, you should understand that production stations at a production facility have specific purposes. And the Escaparate, has a specific purpose!

Lastly I will add some generalities and I hope this one does not go down the wrong pipe… There are critical operations and less critical ones. Some people will mow their lawn in different directions on different weeks. Others, they want to get it over with so they can watch football, or smoke a cigar. Some have their tires rotated regularly and change their oil. Others will replace the car when it breaks…

I am not going to take my neighbors advice on maintaining my car when he lets his rot! The key here is that not all information is good information. Some advice is plain wrong, or bad.

Lastly, the unit of measure. What is a pinch of salt? Or how about a spritz? These terms reflect a haphazard approach to measurement where a more precise one is either unknown or unimportant. In the case of cigars, the importance is certainly there, so lack of precision is based on ignorance!

Frankly I have to tell my customers (unless they are using my products or ones that I can trust) I will absolutely ignore their data from their 'reptile cage' controller! I hate to be so blunt but many people who will spend 20K on cigars will use an instrument from the 5 and dime to protect it. The emphasis is not on cost, but on quality and accuracy, and in the case of controls, precision.

So there you have it… What is magic about 65/65? For all you know the guy who says he is storing at 65/65 is actually storing at 68/50 and he does not know any better!

I speculate that an actual 65/65 is, by the a very narrow margin too wet for cigars. I believe that this setting is on the cusp of mildew production. Why…

Well, I use good equipment. I used to store at rH levels closer to 65 and at cooler temperatures myself. Frankly, I am happy to admit I did not know better! I learned empirically. As I began to get 'off smelling' odors and a wet tasting cigars I learned not to trust what people wrote about cigars and cigar keeping. I was not guessing anymore, I learned empirically that I was keeping too much water in my cigars!

If someone tells me that they are storing their cigars at 65/65 I would ask to see a data log of the events. Do you hear that… Listen… those are crickets calling!

People in the cigar community are very happy to help and lend a hand and that is a wonderful aspect of the community. Some of the information that they share (the community as a whole) is just bad information.

Could you imagine going to a cigar forum where there was no access to knowledgeable people with regards to fraudulent cigars? Where do you think that would take the community? We would (collectively) rating glass top Cohibas and rating them 90 points… That is the difference between good and bad data… I don't assume data is good, unless I generate it myself.

If your instruments reflect a positive experience at 65/65 then that is 'your' good data and it is all you need. If we data logged your humidor, and based on fluctuations and instrumental variations found that on average your temp was 68 and your rH was 62, then what works for you (empirically) has suddenly turned into bad advice on the forum…

Don't trust the data you get from others with any degree of certainly. Please, include me in that group! You must "verify" empirical data with your instruments and "your" taste. That is the only way to be sure!!!

Thanks for the kind words dear lady… You have a fine weekend!

Your friend, Ray

[PigFish]

Is the Vintec Thermoelectric or compressor ? If it's comp then that's the problem, I would say.

How timely…

Maxsi mate, I a going to use you as an example.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS MATE, I AM NOT PICKING ON YOU. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION… We do not roast new members here. I am not in any way attempting to be personal, roast you, or drive you away. Please understand this and accept my apology in advanced.

This post of this member is, I am sure well intended. As I read it, it infers that compressor cooling systems cause this problem… It is totally wrong…

There is this pool of prevailing, erroneous 'information' out there that TE coolers somehow have the ability to 'evade' the laws of physics while cooling. This is typical forum myth… Forum myth when repeated enough becomes forum fact. The bad advice spreads and more people become ill informed…

Cheers! -Piggy

[Maxsi]

No offence taken at all, just would have been better if you said why it is a forum myth.

Don't understand how my post champions TE and implies that they are beyond the laws of physics.

Surely a compressor system is more prone to greater fluctuations in the RH due to the way it cools, defrosts etc. and therefore harder to control (not impossible) but more problematic.

[PigFish]

I have extensive writings about the forum regarding TE verses compressor cooling.

It 'is' forum myth that they (TE coolers) are beyond the laws of physics, in that it is often written that they cool without dehydration (causing condensation). It was not your post that started that myth. That myth is commonplace on cigar forums and this one is no exception!

To quote you. "If it's comp then that's the problem, I would say."

That statement (IMHO) is a reiteration of forum myth, in that, TE coolers to don't dehydrate as they cool, or that they can by some means, absorb an equivalent amount of heat while not causing condensation as compared to a compressor driven cooling device. In my mind you implied that if the OP were using compressor cooling, that is the reason for his problem, and if it were other than compressor he would not have the problem! It appears to me that you laid the problem on compressor cooling, not even knowing if that was a factor. Falsely placing blame for bad design and controls in cooled humidors on compressor coolers is commonplace on cigar boards. It is a cigar forum myth!

If that is not what you meant to say, then please correct me.

As in both posts, yours and mine, there were perhaps better and worse ways to phrase our comments. Again, I am sorry if my using of your post was offensive. As I see it, it was a prime example of how forum myths are spread and that was my point. My point was not as much about the content, as it was that the content was myth perpetuating (IMHO).

In a previous post, I was making general comments about bad data on forums when you posted. My post is largely about forum myths and how they perpetuate and that I think it is far better to follow your own empirical data and tastes than it is too take to heart a lot of data (myths) to be found on forums.

If the point that you were trying to make was that high rH problems are caused by the use of compressor cooling devices verses, TE cooling devices, then you are still wrong! If it was other, I have misinterpreted your post, and the fault and error resides with me!

If you have the time, please explain to me what you were saying and I will rectify my mistakes (if I have made them) by retracting all my comments…

Compressor cooling of humidors can out perform those cooled by TE coolers if properly designed. I am willing to prove it! Bring on your data! Mine is always at the ready!!!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Maxsi]

"Compressor cooling of humidors can out perform those cooled by TE coolers if properly designed"

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience and am forever yearning to learn more. So forgive me if this comes across argumentative.

But I think the 'properly designed' in your post is important.

Do you mean the compressor is properly designed or your set up to deal with it.

Can you tell me if you had two identical coolers but one being TE and the other Comp, add RH beads, switch on and shut the door that the results would be the same.

Sorry, I don't do 'data' struggle to remember what day it is.

[LordAnubis]

From what i have learnt, the TE and compressor debate comes down to efficiency. Yes while cooling they will both dehydrate the system because they both have a cooling surface that develops condensation on it. The difference is thermo systems have a continuously cold plate that is forever dehydrating, where as compressor units run for a short period of time, and then stop.

Piggy will correct me if i'm wrong

[AndrewNR]

Ok.. So I opened my fridge for a few hours and humidity lowered to 55%.. I removed my beads at the same time.. I've ordered another XL beads from Mike.. Fridge is now closed again, Temperature raised and I've introduced some silicone based odourless kitty litter in a stocking.. Will keep you posted and my eye on it while I read away.
These threads certainly generate allot of interesting conversation, I get a bit lost in the technical stuff but its still good to know.

[PigFish]

From what i have learnt, the TE and compressor debate comes down to efficiency. Yes while cooling they will both dehydrate the system because they both have a cooling surface that develops condensation on it. The difference is thermo systems have a continuously cold plate that is forever dehydrating, where as compressor units run for a short period of time, and then stop.

Piggy will correct me if i'm wrong

You are correct!

It is all about keeping up with energy transfer and ultimately cost.

TE coolers are really 'trick' little devices. Don't get me wrong, I am not bagging on them… Frankly I like the concept of them better than compressors! I said concept of them by the way.

It boils down to efficiency in how they cool and how much they cost to cool. That is it with me. No bias except a market based one, backed up empirical data on how they work with cigar storage.

-R

[PigFish]

"Compressor cooling of humidors can out perform those cooled by TE coolers if properly designed"

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience and am forever yearning to learn more. So forgive me if this comes across argumentative.

But I think the 'properly designed' in your post is important.

Do you mean the compressor is properly designed or your set up to deal with it.

Can you tell me if you had two identical coolers but one being TE and the other Comp, add RH beads, switch on and shut the door that the results would be the same.

Sorry, I don't do 'data' struggle to remember what day it is.

TE systems must also be properly designed. While I am not flawless, I do like to be correct. Your TE system must also be properly designed to work. And to bring us full circle… I did not start the TE cooler debate… You did. I did not say that TE coolers don't work, you blamed a member's problem on compressor coolers, not even knowing if it was relevant… Remember?

TE's run in long wavelength, high amplitude cycles. They don't have to run this way. You can use several of them and PWM control them and the airflow to them… Know anyone who is doing it that way mate? I can do it… but it is not worth the trouble or cost to me. TE coolers must cool and cool rapidly to very low temperatures and run long durations to meet heat transfer and "market cost" requirements. So their long wavelength, high amplitude pattern of cooling, not to mention their limited thermal mass, is simply not easy to control in 'many' a humidor situation. I never said you cannot make them work. I said I prefer to use compressors!

I am happy to admit I don't know it all! Please tell me where I can get that sophisticated, mass produced, PWM'ed and controlled Chinese TE cooler and I will go get me one! If anyone can pull off making one work, I can. But why should I bother if I have a known proven system that works and is affordable?

I don't make a habit of looking to 'disprove' things. It does not pay! I make enough mistakes as it is, and find that enough of my own "well thought out" ideas simply don't work by testing them. There is one thing that I do know; there are a lot of ideas that don't work out there. People pay me to fix them everyday…

I don't do hypotheticals… I give my time here freely to help real people with real problems in an attempt to help them better store their cigars. I love to mentor and to teach… So if you have a real problem and need a little help, post it up and if I have the time I will attempt to help you fix it. What I don't do is pretend there are problems for me to fix or prove. There are plenty of real ones out there, ones that I cannot get to!

About your comment of 'data struggle,' clearly a shot over my bow! My suggestion is that you start first by organizing thoughts, then move on to expressing them clearly and after those have been mastered, then you can work with data!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Maxsi]

"My suggestion is that you start first by organizing thoughts, then move on to expressing them clearly and after those have been mastered, then you can work with data!"

Many thanks for the constructive but a touch patronising advice and may bear that in mind in the future, or not.