mk05 Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Can someone give me the cliff notes on the above? Haha, in all seriousness, excellent read! Put cigar in fridge/freezer for it to draw a little better. Don't put cigar in fridge/freezer thinking that it loses water content.
SurpriseMVP Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 OK admittedly RH was the incorrect term and I apologize for that. Have I put a tight draw cigar in the freezer for 20 minutes and it loosened up, Yes. Do I know why, No and honestly don't care. the science behind it much more than I care to know. I like to smoke cigars and enjoy them. I don't have any issues with a cigar that has been in my storage for a while. I Have only used the freezer on a cigar ROTT. I read the freezer trick on this forum by the gentlemen who runs the forum. Mike
subport Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Here is my point to posting on this thread We have one member that believes that dry boxing will reduce the water content in his cigars by 30%, using a small, uncontrolled differential, quickly! We have another member that believes that his cigars are better by putting them in the freezer for 20 minutes. The claim here is, it will lower the rH. Whatever that means! I assume it means the process will remove water from the cigar and reduce the percentage moisture content. rH refers to water vapor in space by the way and has nothing to do with cigars. Cigars can attain or lose water vapor via diffusion as a part of a process known as equilibrium relative humidity. The water gained and lost represents true water content that is referred to as percent moisture content. Much of this information is based on a body of work now referred to as water activity (if you are at all interested). Water activity is studied in great depth in the dry goods and dry, or packaged food industry. If you ever wondered why your packaged peanut butter cookies with the peanut cream are crispy, when the peanut butter is gooey, this is the reason! When you leave the same cookie on the counter and it feels stale some hours later well this is again attributed to water activity. I have to ask any of you guys read my stuff on rH and temperature? So today I pick out a 01 SLR A, cut it and drop it on the scale. Here is the pic. By the way, this scale has a resolution and precision of 1/70,000 of a pound. It is a precision electromagnetic (not a spring) scale. An atomic clock was not used!!! I did not touch the cigar after weighing it. I supported it with parchment paper. After reading you will understand why IMG_5752.JPG The results are forthcoming, but I have to giggle here a little and toss out a spoiler. How many times have I posted here that cigars are not free space? They are a hygroscopic entity with characteristics not the same as water vapor in space, or in air. Cigars compete with free space for water. They control water and bond with water unlike free space! TEMPERATURE HAS JUST AS MUCH TO DO WITH THEIR AFFINITY FOR WATER AS ErH DOES. Now, on with the show! Cigar on scale for first reading, fresh out of a humidor where it has been kept at 70dF and 60rH. IMG_5755.JPG Cigar after 20 minutes in that really dry freezer! IMG_5762.JPG What the "F" happened??? "OH, NO the truth, the facts the humanity.! Piggy's hot little hand and the cigar! IMG_5765.JPG back to the scale! IMG_5768.JPG So for kicks, after weighing the cigar the second time, I picked it up and a handled it as if I was going to smoke it. I took it back to the humidor that it came out of, I picked up a lighter and cutter (yes it was cut already) and moved back out to the scale. Hmmm. This is odd! Now, for the record it is currently 70rH at my house and this cigar has been stored at 70dF and 60rH for a number of years now. It would appear that I have believed (rhetorically speaking) in a myth that has lead me astray, one that is absolute bullshit! It would appear also that lower temperatures ACTUALLY CAUSED MY CIGAR TO ATTRACT what little free water was left in my system. What a shocker!!! -LOL If I only listened to that Pig dude on FoH, he told me this would happen!!! Many beliefs are based in cigar myth and are absolute bullshit. People with good intentions share the myths and the myths move though the community and other people blindly believe them and take them for fact, probably largely due to a placebo effect Here is some data for you all to chew on. I actually removed more water from the cigar by heating it in my hand at a higher rH for 3 minutes, than cooling it in a dry environment for 20 minutes where I actually added water to it. Temperature and equilibrium relative humidity levels work hand in hand to condition your cigars. They are both important. Check your beliefs and rituals my friends I think I may have just saved one member a trip to the freezer and 17 minutes -LOL Or maybe he now knows that he likes his cigars wetter and not dryer. Perhaps he might give water dousing a try!!! Cheers! the Pig Ahhaa, so you're good at photoshop as well :-P Nice presentation man.
stogieluver Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Hard to argue with scientific fact! The very few times I've thought far enough ahead to try dry boxing, I've done so a few days prior to smoking the cigars. For my environment, dry boxing means taking a cigar from an environment of roughly 65%/71F to 60%/71F. Honestly, I haven't noticed a difference in the quality of the smoking experience, most likely because all my smokes do very well right out of my humidor. Since I run my central a/c 24/7, the rh in my home is a near constant 55%/70F, so I might try simply leaving them out of my humi for a few days, and see if that makes a noticeable difference. That surely would beg the question Piggy raised, which is why not simply store cigars in that environment long term? I have to ask Piggy, rhetorically, wouldn't that dry the oils out of the cigars over a long period of time? Is there any data that tells us the critical rh under which our cigars start deteriorating? Cliff notes, please. Thanks, once again, Piggy, for your passion and interest in helping us take better care of our cigars, which results in a more enjoyable smoking experience.
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 To defend Mike, he changed to say he didn't mean RH, but rather the freezer just loosens a tight draw. So that make more sense maybe than lowering RH.
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 And also for the record. I decided to just smoke from the humi. It performed just fine. Perfectly in fact. (pats his own back for taking good care of his cigars). Haha. Seriously guys. Thanks for all the discussion. This has certainly been enlightening. 1
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 So for kicks, after weighing the cigar the second time, I picked it up and a handled it as if I was going to smoke it. I took it back to the humidor that it came out of, I picked up a lighter and cutter (yes it was cut already) and moved back out to the scale. Hmmm…. This is odd! Now, for the record it is currently 70rH at my house and this cigar has been stored at 70dF and 60rH for a number of years now. It would appear that I have believed (rhetorically speaking) in a myth that has lead me astray, one that is absolute bullshit! It would appear also that lower temperatures ACTUALLY CAUSED MY CIGAR TO ATTRACT what little free water was left in my system. What a shocker!!! -LOL If I only listened to that Pig dude on FoH, he told me this would happen!!! Many beliefs are based in cigar myth and are absolute bullshit. People with good intentions share the myths and the myths move though the community and other people blindly believe them and take them for fact, probably largely due to a placebo effect… Here is some data for you all to chew on. I actually removed more water from the cigar by heating it in my hand at a higher rH for 3 minutes, than cooling it in a dry environment for 20 minutes where I actually added water to it. Temperature and equilibrium relative humidity levels work hand in hand to condition your cigars. They are both important. Check your beliefs and rituals my friends… I think I may have just saved one member a trip to the freezer and 17 minutes… -LOL Or maybe he now knows that he likes his cigars wetter and not dryer. Perhaps he might give water dousing a try!!! R, i have a new project to work on during the weekend. Will post up results. cheers for the idea, i'll run it by you via email. Cheers, J
LGC Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Come on Ray... you should know by now that everything posted on the internet is true. All theories (on aging, storage, smoking) posted have been tested under strict conditions... with extensive amounts of empirical evidence to back them up. There's no need to do any testing of your own
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 To defend Mike, he changed to say he didn't mean RH, but rather the freezer just loosens a tight draw. So that make more sense maybe than lowering RH. First off my friends, this is not a "in defense of Mike" issue. Let me be clear here…. I don't know Mike, I have nothing against Mike, I am not picking on Mike. I this context I read what 'Poster A' and 'Poster B' posted and I retorted. I retorted not at or about 'Poster A and B' but an analysis on the information that was being opined. No one need defend themselves nor change practices. Frankly, I were about running people down, I would do it on a political site, where I do truly believe that some idiots reside and I would indeed run them down…! Mike, a am sorry if by using your posts you feel the need to defend yourself. Again, that was not my point. My point was based on the larger focus of the community reading, believing (perhaps falsely, but not positively) "any" belief and passing it on with some amount of certainty… I am not picking on language or precision of writing… Mike is right, this is a forum for fun and fraternity and certainly the frivolity of cigars. I just happen to prefer a world of facts to myths. I am actually a guy that gets emailed when the myths turn to mold on cigars, or months worth of worrying and drying… I am the guy that cleans up the mess once the myths break down. Not that I am crying about it… I chose to be the guy… I make money being the guy… Some means of storage are simple and others quite complex. Regardless of what you choose, what is best for you, understand what you are doing and why. Challenge your beliefs and ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing. I recently had an inquiry, not that is far apart from most of them who stated that he was going to store at xx/yy. I asked him why? He could not really provide any rationale except that is what he heard… I understand being a mentor. I have mentored a few, some of you that post here everyday! I tell everyone that I mentor question everyone when they preach about cigars! That includes me, by the way! So Mike, if you read this and took my examples the wrong way, I am sorry. It was not my intent to make you rationalize your posts or designed to deride you in any way. I AM SORRY! For those of you who care not about the science and the empirical wisdom that I provide in my climatology posts, challenge me or pass me by. My goal is to help people store better. Some practices can ruin cigars. Feel free to challenge me on mine! I would prefer that people question me and learn about the topic if there is wisdom to be gained, rather than blindly follow one that will take you to the wrong place for even the best of reasons. Cheers -Ray 1
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 R, i have a new project to work on during the weekend. Will post up results. cheers for the idea, i'll run it by you via email. Cheers, J … I hate to be a spoiler, but if you are thinking of a hot box… Well… I have beat you to it! -LOL I have written extensively about the idea of hot-boxing for those who cannot dry box. There are several threads around the forum that have some details of the discussion and carnage… -LOL I have several threads about where the relationship between tobacco, heat and ErH water content are discussed. I can only say if you are not interested, don't bother to look them up! -LOL -Piggy
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Sorry if this is a stupid question: I have personally experienced the loosening of a tight draw by putting a cigar into the freezer for an hour. Cut the cigar, draw was too tight, and then after an hour in freezer, draw was better. However, I have also noticed the moistening of the wrapper on that same cigar, fresh out of the freezer, from condensation. So is it possible that the freezer is just drying the whole cigar out, hence the better draw, but then the wrapper is taking on a lot of water quickly, from condensation? Wouldn't that account for the change in mass?
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Ahhaa, so you're good at photoshop as well :-P Nice presentation man. I prefer AutoCAD… AutoCAD represents a precision presentation of a potential reality, unlike PhotoShop which better represents someones depiction of their imagination…! Not that using PhotoShop well is not a wonderful skill!
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Sorry if this is a stupid question: I have personally experienced the loosening of a tight draw by putting a cigar into the freezer for an hour. Cut the cigar, draw was too tight, and then after an hour in freezer, draw was better. However, I have also noticed the moistening of the wrapper on that same cigar, fresh out of the freezer, from condensation. So is it possible that the freezer is just drying the whole cigar out, hence the better draw, but then the wrapper is taking on a lot of water quickly, from condensation? Wouldn't that account for the change in mass? Hi guys. I'm sorry if this has been addressed before. But I am just looking for a quick fix. If the ambient room humidity is higher than it is in my humidor, how can I dry box a cigar? My humi sits at 65% but the humidity where I live is about 80% right now. I usually just sit sticks out on the counter for about 24 hours to dry box. Obviously I can't do that right now and I'm wondering what the alternative is? Thanks for the help and again I'm sorry if this has already been addressed. I'm just wondering because I'm smoking my only La Escepcion tomorrow! -Paul The original post is about dry boxing, not about a cigar that does not draw! Lets say that they are two different issues, probably linked… How a freezer changes draw was not a part of my answer. Frankly, I have no idea… The idea is somewhat counterintuitive to me, but that does not make it not work, or wrong…! Does ice exist in space? Yes…! Therefore there is a point where water energy becomes so low that even in a vacuum it will not break the bonds. The cooler you make water, the better it generally will bond to a hygroscopic material. Logically, the freezer is not drying the cigar… at all! The freezer is changing the physical dimension of the tobacco (possibly) or perhaps it is not doing anything at all! By bringing the cigar that is below the dew point out into the heated and higher humidity space, you are almost certainly causing condensation on the wrapper. You may in fact be dousing! I say don't narrow yourself to one frame of thought here. The freezer may be doing a lot of things, and that includes dehydration, but I doubt it… What you may be doing is a ritual dousing which could be loosening the wrapper and binder, and all the time thinking that you are doing something altogether differently. My bet is on the fact that you are loosening the wrapper and binder, not by drying but by wetting…! I think (but don't actually know) that the freezer here is not a necessary part of the equation! If you think about the practice of freeze pesticide, and consider the concept of freeze dehydration of tobacco, would it not be logical that cigars freeze fumigated would in fact be ruined over the practice? A little food for thought. Great question!!! Cheers! -Piggy
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 … I hate to be a spoiler, but if you are thinking of a hot box… I have several threads about where the relationship between tobacco, heat and ErH water content are discussed. I can only say if you are not interested, don't bother to look them up! hot box in the search bar turns up no results. not even to this thread. odd. email me if you can with that information? and honestly, i don't have an incubator (too bloody expensive) so i wasn't really thinking that. rather different other methods of testing other things with humidity and substances that i've yet to gather information on. we're similar, R . we treat cigars both as an art and a science. 'tis the added synthetic beauty...
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 Well the original question was meant to imply that the draw would be restricted because of higher humidity and therefore solved through dry boxing (or another means.) But it's fine. Either way. Cigars are meant to be a personal thing. People will always have their quirks. Smoke what you like, like what you smoke. If you put cigars in the freezer so they are frozen solid before you light up, go for it, if that's what makes you happy. If you feel that dry boxing helps, then do it. Who cares if it is the placebo effect. I love the science too, but with something like this, whatever someone feels works best for them is just fine with me. 1
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Who cares if it is the placebo effect. I love the science too, but with something like this, whatever someone feels works best for them is just fine with me. www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMefuqseEeY But seriously, that's why it's important. A mass education on these issues is how certain things get resolved. One will actually have the cigars made better instead of just having them appear better. If you wish to live in ignorance, it's best to not care about these things or ask the questions. But then what's the point of the forum? If we tell you that dry boxing or freezing increases the humidity through empirical evidence, isn't it better to know that so you can actually get to the roots of the issue? Please do correct me if i'm wrong. I'm only formulating thoughts myself on this topic.
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 Haha. Ok. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here (and not trying to imply that you are either). I understand it's important. But if a guy has had his cigars loosen up, then he's going to keep doing it no matter what the science says. Ha. That's all. But in all seriousness, this is an awesome discussion and exactly why I enjoy this forum.
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 But if a guy has had his cigars loosen up, then he's going to keep doing it no matter what the science says. That's the attitude one should try to diffuse. I sincerely hope some people don't do that... (despite the fact that i know a few people who do). If it lingers, it'll go well beyond the simple issues like how a cigar tastes. Ignorance is understandable and occasionally amusing. Arrogance is something that causes the issues in the world for the world. 1
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 That's the attitude one should try to diffuse. I sincerely hope some people don't do that... (despite the fact that i know a few people who do). If it lingers, it'll go well beyond the simple issues like how a cigar tastes. Ignorance is understandable and occasionally amusing. Arrogance is something that causes the issues in the world for the world. But they are different. The whole "if it ain't broke don't fix it" isn't necessarily arrogance. It's just if something is working then why mess with a winning combination.
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMefuqseEeY But seriously, that's why it's important. A mass education on these issues is how certain things get resolved. One will actually have the cigars made better instead of just having them appear better. If you wish to live in ignorance, it's best to not care about these things or ask the questions. But then what's the point of the forum? If we tell you that dry boxing or freezing increases the humidity through empirical evidence, isn't it better to know that so you can actually get to the roots of the issue? Please do correct me if i'm wrong. I'm only formulating thoughts myself on this topic. … this is my position too! I don't demand that others adopt it, but I do support it though discussion. I don't believe that relativism in any way reflects the reality of a possible solution. I shun 'feel good' science and junk science. I don't wish to drag this down or start an argument with those that 'believe' differently. But, I believe "ignorant bliss" to be a rut… I have said many times that bliss trumps facts in the lives of most people. However if you (one) steps up and calls them ignorant, man will they get pissed off at you! I don't mind if people prefer to remain ignorant, they can pass by my writing and rantings. But, when ignorance spreads though a topic that I am passionate about, I will generally share my opinion, if for no other reason than to enjoy good conversation… Forum writing is not about debating a few parties. It is about the sharing and airing of thought to a community. Some will align and others are indifferent. In a healthy forum there will be a wide readership where not all will participate beyond that of reading. In any event, being read is being known. Being known, takes risk. You bet only what you wish to win or risk (to lose). I gamble some with my reputation in order to strengthen it and make new friends. Just like cigars, we all must choose which form of participation we will chose to imbibe. To me, this is not an argument nor debate with a few parties. It is about interesting reading and the sharing of ideas with an entire body of people world wide. I think it is effin' fantastic!!! Cheers! -Piggy 3
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 But they are different. The whole "if it ain't broke don't fix it" isn't necessarily arrogance. It's just if something is working then why mess with a winning combination. Ah! see, we differ on a slight technicality. You assume that if it that method of increasing humidity will continue to unplug it, it will work for every cigar. I, on the other hand, assume that since it increases humidity and unplugs the cigar, then the reason isn't the humidity. Rather, it is something else that affects it. I propose finding out what it is. If it's still unknown, then we can go with traditional methods until we find out what it is. Now, IF it is the humidity, then it only appears to not be broken and will one day inevitably break if humidity is the only thing you're changing. Nonacceptance of such data is what is defined as arrogance. However, your example is not arrogance but traditionalism. Which works for most accounts, too! I have said many times that bliss trumps facts in the lives of most people. However if you (one) steps up and calls them ignorant, man will they get pissed off at you! I don't mind if people prefer to remain ignorant, they can pass by my writing and rantings. But, when ignorance spreads though a topic that I am passionate about, I will generally share my opinion, if for no other reason than to enjoy good conversation… x2 x3 1
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 That's the attitude one should try to diffuse. I sincerely hope some people don't do that... (despite the fact that i know a few people who do). If it lingers, it'll go well beyond the simple issues like how a cigar tastes. Ignorance is understandable and occasionally amusing. Arrogance is something that causes the issues in the world for the world. … this is profound! I could not have written this better myself… Bravo… Bravo! While we are drifting here… ignorance and arrogance are the hand tools of evil doers. That is my position. I look for education where I can find it. I love to share it when there is a benefit to others. A depth of understanding not only makes the topic more interesting (at least to me) it provides for a better means of communication for all. JMHO… I can find no argument to support ignorance except to those who would profit from it. 1
Maplepie Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 … this is profound! I could not have written this better myself… Bravo… Bravo! cheers Ray. means a lot coming from the local forum Guru
PigFish Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I am off to smoke my ribs for Independence Day… Down with King George! Cheers! -the Pig
pbibby Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 I am off to smoke my ribs for Independence Day… Down with King George! Cheers! -the Pig Enjoy! And seriously. I freaking love this forum. 1
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