Wineador rh/temp issues

[poisonowns]

So I'm in the process of building a wineador and I've done a lot of reading on the topic. So much so that I think I've confused myself even more, but anyway, here's my issue.

I bought a 28 bottle thermo wine fridge. The fridge came stock with an analog temp control and after monitoring the fridge for a few days I determined I needed something to keep the fridge in a more appropriate range rather than the rather random 8 degree range I witnessed over the few days of monitoring with a digital thermometer. So long story short, I got a Johnson controller to keep the temp in an acceptable range. Simple enough.

Humidity is where the problem crept in. I live in Arizona which is dry all year around. I have beads in the currently empty fridge, and while I sit there and watch the temp go down as the fridge runs, I also watch the RH drop, approximately 10% over the course of the running cycle. In the time it takes the fridge is cycled off, the humidity reaches close to the desired result of 65%, but then clicks back on to balance temp again.

So here are my questions:

1) is the humidity swinging so much because I'm using an empty fridge?

2) how can I be sure that moisture wouldn't be drawn from the cigars to keep RH stable? Can moistened beads + ceder keep the environment stable enough?

3) Knowing the dryness of my environment, should I consider a cigar oasis or some other sort of active humidification system to insure the RH actually stays stable?

4) Is the cigar oasis the smartest option given the space is small? Do I run the risk of over humidifying my sticks?

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I have used the search function. While there's a lot of information available, I'm not finding the answers to the questions I'm looking for.

Regards,

Andy

[Hiroshiro]

Fill it up and the swing won't be so much. Leave them unplug while the Cigars absorb the Moisture if possible. I have 4 280Es that I leave mostly unplugged until Summer starts. Sit great between 64-69 even while the cooler is running

[LordAnubis]

Question, do you NEED cooling? What are your ambient temps in your house? Is your home climate controlled?

1) Humidty will fluctuate less when you have stock in there, simply because you have a larger amount of material holding water in your fridge. As the air in the fridge dries, the water will transfer from the box and tobacco into the air. That's the way i look at it anyway, ofcourse piggy will give us the details on this when he gets online

2) THe laws of physics dictate whether water will be removed from your cigars first or the cedar. I would think if your cigars were stored inside realtively sealed boxes (the ones the cigars come in), then you'd be pretty safe to assuem the box would dry and moisten before the tobacco inside did.

3) Cigar oasis is a good active system apparently (no personal experience) You can probably achieve the same thing by fan placement and beads though.

4) Cigar oasis gets good reviews from other people, but they may not have the same conditions as you do. For what it's worth though, I doubt you would over humidfy if you used the cigar oasis.

[PigFish]

I don't have the time to get to this today, but a little research in this topic will get you where you want to go. I am really backed up with some quotes and a lot of writing…

Some valid points being offered. I am guessing that if you live in AZ, unless you have an extension cord over to Davis dam… you do need some cooling!

Back when I can!

Cheers, the Pig

[superconductor71]

Environmental conditions are really key....what might be right for you may not be right for some (80's tv sitcom reference).....

I can tell you that my wineador (18 bottle) has beads on both levels, a cigar oasis xl plus (about to be modded with polymer crystals), and an old cpu fan wired to come on once an hour. The wineador itself is left unplugged. With all of this, my RH is between 64-66, and temps at around 65-66F.

But i'm in PA and it's probably quite different than AZ atm

Piggy has all the science behind it all (and has been an enormous help for other humidor issues) those recommendations given above all are excellent, but what I can say is that you need to take all that data and find what works for you. I initially plugged in my wineador as well, and noticed the exact same thing...RH plummets.....and thinking about it, that makes sense....especially without active humidification. I unplugged it, and went with those other humidification options and i'm stable.

~Drew

[PapaDisco]

It would be interesting to know the saturation and release rates of dress boxes vs cabs vs cedar vs beads vs active somethings (oasis). As the cooling cycle runs, you'd like something other than the cigars providing moisture to the wineador environment. If you're seeing big swings it's an indication that beads can't react fast enough. Like LordA says, storing your sticks in their boxes will make the boxes take the brunt of the vapor breathing. You can go a step further and seal each box in a ziplock which will dramatically reduce vapor transmission (not to zero, but way down). And simply just having all that mass will help both your temp and your moisture stability.

Piggy has an extensive piece on here somewhere about his efforts to significantly reduce the temperature cycling in his wineadors. Makes a lot of sense that if you can get your controller to run more often for much shorter runs, that you'll see smaller rH swings (and those small swings will get handled by your beads and boxes).

[PigFish]

Regarding water vapor replacement…

There is little short of a high capacity ultrasonic humidifier that can counteract the dehydration power of forced air cooling. In a wine cooler, you just cannot practically eliminate it!

In order to reduce the effects, you must short cycle your cooler. This is done with a capable logic controller, programming and humidor design. You should also have a means to "heat sink" a low temperature area in your cooler by dividing it from your cigars. This helps to reduce the cycle frequency. I use multiple means to do this, it is not complex but it costs money. It is all about how serious you are about cigar stability.

An active humidifier is a must. Once that is introduced, a free water source, and unless the cooler endlessly cycles, your cooler with over-humidify. I solve this with a de-humidify process in my products.

There are really only 3 ways this works. Most fix it by unplugging their cooler. MHO, that is not working! The second way is by forcing the cooler to alway cycle. It is pretty simple, if your ambient is say above 70dF, you set your cooler for 65dF or less and it will always cycle. The cycle itself causes the dehydration and therefore eliminates the rH 'creep,' as I call it. That (IMHO) is also not working! Ultimately, in order to solve an rH creep problem, you endlessly force your cigars into an unstable condition. If you are happy with the condition it leaves your cigars, meaning somewhere based on an average of endless cycle of deep dehydration, then you can say it works also… Again, I don't define this a working. It falls outside of my realm of stability and forces me to store my cigars below a condition that wish to store them. There is no real means to identify the actual conditions that your cigars exist. There is no datum. There is no datum because you are always cycling them.

The last is a dedicated dehydration cycle. This is what I do! It works. I post data logs of the process all the time.

Every process causes a cycle. The cycle amplitude and duration defines stability. Each must examine his/her own humidor, note the cycles and decide if that is the place for their cigars.

Cheers, -Mr. Piggy

[poisonowns]

Piggy,

So active humidification followed by a dedicated dehydration cycle is the best route? I don't know the science behind what happens to my cigars when the humidity drops and rises 50x a day, but I can't imagine its reflects consistency and don't like the idea of moisture bring pulled from my sticks to keep the RH balance.

[PigFish]

Piggy,

So active humidification followed by a dedicated dehydration cycle is the best route? I don't know the science behind what happens to my cigars when the humidity drops and rises 50x a day, but I can't imagine its reflects consistency and don't like the idea of moisture bring pulled from my sticks to keep the RH balance.

…"followed by" is not really technically correct, nor linked to active humidifiction.

Active cooling requires active humidification to compensate for 'active dehumidification' as a result of active cooling!!! Any free water in the humidor, this includes water left on the evaporation coil, or in the active humidifier itself, will start to evaporate anytime the rH is less than 100%. As that water works its way into the open space in your humidor, the rH will climb.

Assuming that the active cooling is not asked to respond to high temperature (switched on by your controller based on the temperature set point), there will be no way to keep this humidification creep in check. A high humidity check (set point) must be in place to keep this creep within a tolerance (as decided by the humidor administrator).

All cycles are not alike. A study of cyclical environments will produce three basic results. Those results will include how often the variable (temp or rH) vary from the desired, the time they vary from the desired (duration) and the difference from the desired (amplitude). Small changes are harmless. Large, high duration changes represent potential problems.

Remember, if you leave your cigars on a desk in 90dF temperature and 10rH, there will be a different result for it being left there for 10 seconds, 10 hours, or 10 days!

All environments cycle. The desire for stability is up to you. The damage done can be real over time. There is no way I can predict what cycles will product real damage. All I can do is anticipate damage and do what I can to prevent cycling in order to prevent it.

Maybe later I will post up some (previously posted) data logs to demonstrate what I am talking about.

I hope that helps! -Piggy