hygrometer malfunction

[Peacock]

I noticed a few months ago that my Rh started to rise slowly, but steadily. The temp. remained consistent (67 - 69 dF). I would let my humi dry out to compensate for the readings, keeping the Rh at 66%. Due to my increased purchases, I am setting up another humidor, so I bought a Caliber IV hygrometer, calibrated it with a Boveda and dropped it in my existing humidor next to my old one that read 66%. The new hygrometer stabilized at 53% Rh. I put the old hygrometer in the Boveda pack, waited for 24 hours and it read 67%.

I have surmised that my old hygrometer has been malfunctioning for a couple of months.

So, it appears that my cigars have been subjected to a less than ideal Rh that got as low as 53%. I am pretty sure that this was a gradual process, as I have a good seal on my humi, but over a couple of months they have dried out a bit.

No problem, I know that gradual rehumidification will stabilize the Rh.

My question is: Are the cigars unsmokable for awhile? How long should I let them adjust to the new Rh before smoking them? I smoked a Monte 4 a few days ago, and it smoked great. I'm confused.

[LordAnubis]

They are only unsmokable if you deem them to be. Smoke one and find out mate.

Press it, see if the wrapper splits, smell it, all those things. You will only know for sure if you try it. Has your smoking experience been getting worse and worse? if not then i dare say you're free to smoke your cigars. Of course it may also mean that both hygrometers are wrong? The technology we use is not exactly state of the art. If you are comfortable with your humidor and the cigars it provides for your smoking pleasure, then a number on a hygrometer means less than a pinch of ****. Trust your senses and you experiences above all else. I know because i've chased numbers myself and at the end of the day it just stresses you out.

The ONLY thing that matters is that you are enjoying your cigars.

EDIT: Ohh and how big is your humidor and how many cigars do you have in it?

[Peacock]

They are only unsmokable if you deem them to be. Smoke one and find out mate.

Press it, see if the wrapper splits, smell it, all those things. You will only know for sure if you try it. Has your smoking experience been getting worse and worse? if not then i dare say you're free to smoke your cigars. Of course it may also mean that both hygrometers are wrong? The technology we use is not exactly state of the art. If you are comfortable with your humidor and the cigars it provides for your smoking pleasure, then a number on a hygrometer means less than a pinch of ****. Trust your senses and you experiences above all else. I know because i've chased numbers myself and at the end of the day it just stresses you out.

The ONLY thing that matters is that you are enjoying your cigars.

EDIT: Ohh and how big is your humidor and how many cigars do you have in it?

The cigars seem just fine. I've only smoked a few in the last couple of months, but they burned great, didn't taste harsh or dry at all. The current humidor holds 150 sticks and I have about 80 or so in there. I do have another box of Monte 4's coming (MONTE20!!!), and a box of LCDF grands, which is why I am setting up the new humi. I figure that the new hygrometer is at least close. It stabilized at 75Rh in the 75Rh Boveda at 69dF in 36 hours, and dropped to 53% after 24 hours in the humi. I know I'm probably overly concerned, but I figure with a resource like FOH, why not ask?

[PigFish]

A number of notes here.

Most people (MHO) store their cigars too wet (a matter of my tastes and opinion). Many people who use a cooler, misunderstand the cyclical relationship in their coolers. Many who use an active cooler and a passive humidifier with a slow hygrometer, believe that they store at a certain rH level when in fact their storage is based on a much lower average rH due to deep cycling.

Many people place hygrometers near hygroscopic materials therefore reading the material and not the atmosphere.

Many people don't understand that there is not necessarily a parallel, linear response curve for a hygrometer to actual rH. Therefore setting it next to a water source of 75 rH and extrapolating the differential data to another setting, say 65 rH is not an accurate means for calibration. If calibration cannot be done at your number of choice, three points should be used to establish a line of 'inaccuracy' and adjustment numbers should be derived from that line.

A couple of rH here or there should make little difference at a fixed temperature. If the temperature varies, 5, 10, 20 degrees then the temperature changes have a much larger affect on the rate of water adsorption as well as equilibrium water content of your cigars than a few rH.

Lastly… All is in the testing (as stated above). You may have just found that your cigars actually taste better, as long as they don't crack, at this dryer climate than the wetter one. Be wary however, you may not like the results of the dryer rH if the temperature increases towards the higher 70's. This temperature range will really force water from your cigars and they may in fact become too dry!

Cheers! -the Pig

[PigFish]

…one more point.

In a place like WA state, where the ambient rH is relatively high much of the year, you may wish to start dryer and not try to force your humidor to a state which might gradually increase with time. If you live in a highly controlled space it should make no difference, but if you are a fresh air fiend and like to let the outdoors in, then you may have a natural inclination toward wetter cigars just do to your environment.

Good luck, -the Pig

[Peacock]

A number of notes here.

Most people (MHO) store their cigars too wet (a matter of my tastes and opinion). Many people who use a cooler, misunderstand the cyclical relationship in their coolers. Many who use an active cooler and a passive humidifier with a slow hygrometer, believe that they store at a certain rH level when in fact their storage is based on a much lower average rH due to deep cycling.

Many people place hygrometers near hygroscopic materials therefore reading the material and not the atmosphere.

Many people don't understand that there is not necessarily a parallel, linear response curve for a hygrometer to actual rH. Therefore setting it next to a water source of 75 rH and extrapolating the differential data to another setting, say 65 rH is not an accurate means for calibration. If calibration cannot be done at your number of choice, three points should be used to establish a line of 'inaccuracy' and adjustment numbers should be derived from that line.

A couple of rH here or there should make little difference at a fixed temperature. If the temperature varies, 5, 10, 20 degrees then the temperature changes have a much larger affect on the rate of water adsorption as well as equilibrium water content of your cigars than a few rH.

Lastly… All is in the testing (as stated above). You may have just found that your cigars actually taste better, as long as they don't crack, at this dryer climate than the wetter one. Be wary however, you may not like the results of the dryer rH if the temperature increases towards the higher 70's. This temperature range will really force water from your cigars and they may in fact become too dry!

Cheers! -the Pig

Wow! Thanks for the information! I have tried to be very consistent in my temperature as I know how it affects rh. I'm enjoying my cigars as they are, so I intend to bring my rh up to 60% and leave it there for awhile. I may end up with 60% being my standard.

Thanks again Pig!

[PigFish]

Wow! Thanks for the information! I have tried to be very consistent in my temperature as I know how it affects rh. I'm enjoying my cigars as they are, so I intend to bring my rh up to 60% and leave it there for awhile. I may end up with 60% being my standard.

Thanks again Pig!

You are welcome. While my input was the most technical, frankly the best advice was previously given by LordA. In that advice he states basically, that you are your own best expert on your cigars and your tastes are what matters. That is sage advice, and frankly the best on the thread. With it already posted, I did not feel the need to repeat it.

FTR, temperature does not just affect water vapor in space! It also directly affects the isothermal response of tobacco. Don't forget what it is that you are conditioning. It is not space, it is the tobacco in the space; as a result of conditioning the space.

Cheers! -Ray

[LordAnubis]

Many people don't understand that there is not necessarily a parallel, linear response curve for a hygrometer to actual rH. Therefore setting it next to a water source of 75 rH and extrapolating the differential data to another setting, say 65 rH is not an accurate means for calibration. If calibration cannot be done at your number of choice, three points should be used to establish a line of 'inaccuracy' and adjustment numbers should be derived from that line.

Cheers! -the Pig

This my friend is great!!! I work in the mining industry with well calibrated equipment. I always find it hilarious when people do a 2 point calibration (0 and lets say 10 ppm gold) and then run a solution of say 60ppm gold through the machine and think they are spot on. While our method of interpolation is slightly better than wildly extrapolating like in my real world example, it's in no way precise. Repeatable maybe, but not precise.

I have never in fact calibrated my hygrometer. I operate (or try to) 65% rh in my humi at 18 degrees and i check what the hygrometer is reading against three 65% bovedas in a sealed plastic container at the same temp. This just gives me an idea of how far out the hygrometer may be. I don't pay attention to my numbers, i just pay attention to how the cigars smell and feel and smoke.

[PigFish]

This my friend is great!!! I work in the mining industry with well calibrated equipment. I always find it hilarious when people do a 2 point calibration (0 and lets say 10 ppm gold) and then run a solution of say 60ppm gold through the machine and think they are spot on. While our method of interpolation is slightly better than wildly extrapolating like in my real world example, it's in no way precise. Repeatable maybe, but not precise.

I have never in fact calibrated my hygrometer. I operate (or try to) 65% rh in my humi at 18 degrees and i check what the hygrometer is reading against three 65% bovedas in a sealed plastic container at the same temp. This just gives me an idea of how far out the hygrometer may be. I don't pay attention to my numbers, i just pay attention to how the cigars smell and feel and smoke.

I have said time and time again, that accuracy of hygrometers is overrated. Hygrometer numbers are only talking points between those with accurate hygrometers. By the time you distill this down to the average user, cigar husband, one person is talking Greek and the other Arabic!!! It is fun to talk about rH as a point of reference (not forgetting temperature) but the real meat of this topic is in your original post, that is why I emphasized it.

You must be your own expert and rely on your own tastes! This is cigar smoking, not the incubation of premature babies! As I said, I think your original post said most of what was really important to the smoking experience. I just can't pass up on a technical thread!!! -LOL

Cheers mate! -R

[PapaDisco]

I have three hygrometers (2 digital and 1 analog) for 1 humidor (50 cigars) and 1 tupperdor (300+ cigars), and not only are they all over the map, but they also drift unpredictably. For instance, when I got the 50 cigar humi, I 'calibrated' the analog hygrometer as instructed by wrapping it up in a saturated washcloth for 15 minutes (much less accurate than the salt test, but I tend to follow instructions that come with things). Anyway, the analog unit read 85 instead of 100, so I managed the humi to a reading of 50 and added 15 to that number. Uncomfortable with that, I bought and calibrated a digital hygrometer and sure enough, when the analog said 50, my digital said 63, thus confirming the earlier calibration of the analog hygro. 3 months later though, and both hygrometers were within 3 digits of one another!

When I started filling my tuperdor I put the analog and a new digital hygrometer in it (it's a lot of cigars after all). I expected the thing to rise a fall a bit with the household ambient rH because these things are leaky, but the readings were all over the map on both devices. I eventually put all three hygrometers in the tuperdor, along with more 69 Boveda's and the three settled out at: Digital 2: 61%, Analog: 63%, and Digital 2: 65%. Part of the challenge is with the size of recent shipments; stuff from Canada and Oz tends to arrive less humid than stuff from Germany, and as that hygroscopic mass goes into the tuperdor it can raise or lower the overall number dramatically.

The differences are not a problem, but the variation in the differences is mind boggling and tough to manage. I don't mind that one device varies from another, but it's a pain when the variation itself varies!

[PigFish]

If you guys insist on attempting to adhere a certain Temp/rH setting, you should get one instrument, probably a new one annually, and have it certified at the temperature and humidity that you wish to store your cigars. Align every other instrument from the certified instrument.

Many are also assuming that their humidors are homogenous! Wrong!!! Unless you are constantly moving air around in your humidor, the air homogenizes the temperature, and the water vapor for consistent rH, the readings are going to vary even in the smallest humidors. This is just the laws of physics at work. The more precise your instruments, the more frustration you will have unless you have mastered the art of humidor control.

You have two choices. Either don't worry about it, or go to the next level, whatever level that is for you.

Trust me on this folks. You are not alone in this.

Humidors are always in flux. The precision humidor builder can reduce the deviations and change the cycles, but we all live with it to some extent. Unless you have a 100% stable environment you will not have a stable humidor. Even then, unless you move the air and water around in your humidor, you will have internal variations. This is the nature of the beast my friends. All you can do is make the best of what you have and work to solve specific problems that contribute to poor smoking experiences and marked problems with your cigars.

My best advice is solve problems as they arise, or ones that you know will arise. Don't go looking for problems if you don't have them. Study the topic and adhere to known settings if you don't know better yourself.

Start at a known or desired setting and start to pay attention to what your cigars tell you. They will tell you when they are getting dry or wet. Take one of your hygrometers and measure the ambient. Even with automated humidors, knowing what is going on outside of your humidor is just as important as knowing what is going on inside.

Cheers! -Piggy