Quick question regarding beads

[White]

So I have on order a 2" plastic container of HCM beads. I plan on using it on my desktop humidor and Im wondering if I should take out the water humidifier thats in there currently (basic Diamond Crown humidifier that came with it).

The beads say that if you want to increase the humidity, leave a sponge in the humidor for 1 day then remove it. I figured the humidifier would have the same effect..?

Thanks

[stargazer14]

You can leave it in until you reach that RH you are looking for (65%?) when you put the new beads in, then take it out. The beads will do the rest afterward. They dont 'add moisture', just keep a constant once you get it there.

[PigFish]

While this is not really a complex question, and there are many pragmatic answers, there is only one technically correct one.

If you read over the other bead thread in this forum you will learn some about beads.

There are many hygroscopic items in your humidor. These include, but not limited to, the humidor itself, your beads, boxes, cigars.... etc., etc... Each item handles water vapor and liquid water differently. Each has its own set of isotherms and more importantly its own hysteresis.

You see liquid water is like fire in some ways. Liquid water will continue to evaporate in a sealed container until the space above it becomes 100% rH. That is the goal of liquid water. Liquid water is a primary source of water vapor, but you need to control it or it evaporates at will. Unless a balance is reached where the humidor and its components lose water at the same rate of evaporation, ErH will always be moving to dryer or wetter depending on the supply/loss delta.

Your system (humidor) is not perfect. It does not really have to be. But you need to know where you want to go, and what you need to battle (as in ambient conditions in your room) before you attempt to build a passive system to solve it.

I mean would you send 50 police to a domestic dispute and 2 police to a riot? Of course not! You need to balance supply with demand. Solving problems then is in part knowing what problems need to be solved and finding the correct solutions.

Beads, in a porous system such as a thin wood desktop humidor, in ambient 40% rH conditions, are a poor choice. On the other hand, they are a great choice for a sealed humidor were there are vey few air exchanges. Beads don't create water. They simply gain or lose water according to the ErH of your humidor. They control a weaker environment and are controlled by a more powerful one. People want their beads to be the most powerful in their humidors but they rarely are. Very few people build a system where the desiccant is the most powerful component of their humidor, it is simply not practical, but there are tricks! The cigars themselves will likely always be the most powerful hygroscopic component in your humidor. Frankly that is the way it should be! Your cigars should be conditioned properly and the beads should help them remain that way. Beads for the most part, won't truly condition your cigars unless you have a LARGE AMOUNT OF THEM! But then, who conditions them and how will you do that?

If you want to change your cigar environment then, test if first. Test your ambient and look for solutions that will counteract what forces are working against you. This is the honest answer! Otherwise, take your beads out of your humidor, condition them separately to what you want and pray that it works.

Hoping, praying that it works is the most common process that "cigar hosts" use to make their humidors work. I don't rely on it myself...

I trust in God but use a logic controller! I think I have just invented a new slogan!!! -LOL

Cheers. -Piggy

[stargazer14]

Oh boy. I think White's gonna get out of the cigar collecting business after that one.

On a more serious note, Piggy does know what he's talking about, obviously.

[PigFish]

Was it that bad really???? -LOL

[White]

Let's see if I can remember everything you said during my reply..

Right now I'm using a water humidifier (stock diamond crown one) and a small xikar gel container. It's been holding a constant humidity so I feel everything inside is conditioned properly. Im pretty sure the beads will work for my set up, thick wood Diamond Crown in a closet with no fan or sunlight. I'm holding a perfect temp and humidity and have been.

The problem is, opening the lid fast or something has caused water to drip from the humidifier so I don't want to chance anything and the xikars always fluctuate wildly when I recharge them. So I went with the no-dripping-water, low maintenance, and stable HCM beads.

What you're saying is once its conditioned to the same rH as the beads I ordered (which it is exactly) then remove the water humidification and have just the beads.

[stargazer14]

My answer would be just 'yes'

But I'm sure Pig will be here soon to expand on that. : )

[White]

My answer would be just 'yes'

But I'm sure Pig will be here soon to expand on that. : )

Lol yeah, I think he misinterpreted my first post, I should have rephrased it

[PigFish]

... I give up! Further reply via proxy. -LOL

I am great with a data logger, the King's English is another matter!!! -Piggy

[PigFish]

Alright, I will make one more attempt at this and try to keep it simple.

You have a system whereas your cigars are well conditioned and due to the risk of liquid water dripping, and some variation upon recharging you had decided to change your system of humidification. Correct?

Your system has a verifiable and known water loss rate. How do I know? Because you must recharge your humidifiers at some period based on regular water loss. Correct?

You have taken a direct water supply and supplanted a buffer in its place.

So the question is to you again, why would you do this? (This is a rhetorical question.)

I can only imagine that one would do this because they did not understand exactly how a desiccant works. Now I could be wrong and you might very well understand how they work and I might not understand what is being discussed but here goes again!

A desiccant is not programmed, made, or made capable of delivering an endless ErH environment. They are stupid products. They are only capable of emulating their environment. That is all that they do. If the environment is wetter than they are, they take on water to emulate. If dryer, they desorb water to emulate. It is that simple.

The process of adsorption and desorption changes the percent water content of the desiccant and AT THE SAME TIME, THE MATCHING ERH THAT THEY WILL SUPPORT ACCORDING TO THEIR ISOTHERM!

They don't simply supply water vapor to support 65 ErH until they are dry! They lose water and then they are no longer 65 ErH beads anymore. They are 60 ErH beads now, or 55 ErH, or 48, 46, 43 etc., etc., etc...

Why is this important to your case? Because 4 oz of beads likely are holding about 1 oz of liquid water in a vapor form. That is it!!!

I don't pretend to know the isotherm of this product but it is gonna' look something like this. Lose 1/8 oz of water, now 60 ErH beads. Lose another 1/8 oz of water, now 55 ErH beads and so on!

This means that rather than the prolonged period of stability that you had in your humidor due to feeding it via a liquid water supply, you now have a humdior that will almost immediately start to dry. You simply don't have the same water supply, nor the evaporative action that you used to have.

I believe, and I know nothing more about your system that what you have told me, that you have created a less stable environment for your cigars than you had before. I figure I would be doing you a disservice by not telling you something that might damage your cigars so I am speaking up.

You see I don't know what a Diamond Crown humdior is! Nor do I know much about the other products that you mentioned. What I do know, is something about Cuban cigars, desiccants and psychrometry. I know these topic pretty well. I know how to make a great working humidor. I recognize many mistakes when I see them, because I have made them myself.

I hope this helps and if not, well, I hope it helps someone that might stumble on to the thread and be the wiser for it.

Good luck in any case. -the Pig

[hdryder]

Alright, I will make one more attempt at this and try to keep it simple.

You have a system whereas your cigars are well conditioned and due to the risk of liquid water dripping, and some variation upon recharging you had decided to change your system of humidification. Correct?

Your system has a verifiable and known water loss rate. How do I know? Because you must recharge your humidifiers at some period based on regular water loss. Correct?

You have taken a direct water supply and supplanted a buffer in its place.

So the question is to you again, why would you do this? (This is a rhetorical question.)

I can only imagine that one would do this because they did not understand exactly how a desiccant works. Now I could be wrong and you might very well understand how they work and I might not understand what is being discussed but here goes again!

A desiccant is not programmed, made, or made capable of delivering an endless ErH environment. They are stupid products. They are only capable of emulating their environment. That is all that they do. If the environment is wetter than they are, they take on water to emulate. If dryer, they desorb water to emulate. It is that simple.

The process of adsorption and desorption changes the percent water content of the desiccant and AT THE SAME TIME, THE MATCHING ERH THAT THEY WILL SUPPORT ACCORDING TO THEIR ISOTHERM!

They don't simply supply water vapor to support 65 ErH until they are dry! They lose water and then they are no longer 65 ErH beads anymore. They are 60 ErH beads now, or 55 ErH, or 48, 46, 43 etc., etc., etc...

Why is this important to your case? Because 4 oz of beads likely are holding about 1 oz of liquid water in a vapor form. That is it!!!

I don't pretend to know the isotherm of this product but it is gonna' look something like this. Lose 1/8 oz of water, now 60 ErH beads. Lose another 1/8 oz of water, now 55 ErH beads and so on!

This means that rather than the prolonged period of stability that you had in your humidor due to feeding it via a liquid water supply, you now have a humdior that will almost immediately start to dry. You simply don't have the same water supply, nor the evaporative action that you used to have.

I believe, and I know nothing more about your system that what you have told me, that you have created a less stable environment for your cigars than you had before. I figure I would be doing you a disservice by not telling you something that might damage your cigars so I am speaking up.

You see I don't know what a Diamond Crown humdior is! Nor do I know much about the other products that you mentioned. What I do know, is something about Cuban cigars, desiccants and psychrometry. I know these topic pretty well. I know how to make a great working humidor. I recognize many mistakes when I see them, because I have made them myself.

I hope this helps and if not, well, I hope it helps someone that might stumble on to the thread and be the wiser for it.

Good luck in any case. -the Pig

Made me look at beads differently.

[White]

Yes, there was water dripping and I did not want to risk it, and when refilling the xikar it jumps to 82%+ and really makes the cigars too humid. That happened on an old humidor, my new one is so new that I havent had to recharge the xikar. Here is the diamond crown water humidifier: http://www.mccranies...tion system.png (not my picture)

Here is the xikar gel: http://i289.photobuc...XR8/Xikar-1.jpg (not my picture)

As I understood the beads, I would stick them in there and it would release moisture until it reached the set humidity.

If I put in a bunch of moist cigars eventually it would absorb any additional humidity. If it needs a constant water supply I dont understand how everyone uses them. Perhaps I should keep the water humidifier in there in that case?

[Ghabanos]

While this is not really a complex question, and there are many pragmatic answers, there is only one technically correct one.

If you read over the other bead thread in this forum you will learn some about beads.

There are many hygroscopic items in your humidor. These include, but not limited to, the humidor itself, your beads, boxes, cigars.... etc., etc... Each item handles water vapor and liquid water differently. Each has its own set of isotherms and more importantly its own hysteresis.

You see liquid water is like fire in some ways. Liquid water will continue to evaporate in a sealed container until the space above it becomes 100% rH. That is the goal of liquid water. Liquid water is a primary source of water vapor, but you need to control it or it evaporates at will. Unless a balance is reached where the humidor and its components lose water at the same rate of evaporation, ErH will always be moving to dryer or wetter depending on the supply/loss delta.

Your system (humidor) is not perfect. It does not really have to be. But you need to know where you want to go, and what you need to battle (as in ambient conditions in your room) before you attempt to build a passive system to solve it.

I mean would you send 50 police to a domestic dispute and 2 police to a riot? Of course not! You need to balance supply with demand. Solving problems then is in part knowing what problems need to be solved and finding the correct solutions.

Beads, in a porous system such as a thin wood desktop humidor, in ambient 40% rH conditions, are a poor choice. On the other hand, they are a great choice for a sealed humidor were there are vey few air exchanges. Beads don't create water. They simply gain or lose water according to the ErH of your humidor. They control a weaker environment and are controlled by a more powerful one. People want their beads to be the most powerful in their humidors but they rarely are. Very few people build a system where the desiccant is the most powerful component of their humidor, it is simply not practical, but there are tricks! The cigars themselves will likely always be the most powerful hygroscopic component in your humidor. Frankly that is the way it should be! Your cigars should be conditioned properly and the beads should help them remain that way. Beads for the most part, won't truly condition your cigars unless you have a LARGE AMOUNT OF THEM! But then, who conditions them and how will you do that?

If you want to change your cigar environment then, test if first. Test your ambient and look for solutions that will counteract what forces are working against you. This is the honest answer! Otherwise, take your beads out of your humidor, condition them separately to what you want and pray that it works.

Hoping, praying that it works is the most common process that "cigar hosts" use to make their humidors work. I don't rely on it myself...

I trust in God but use a logic controller! I think I have just invented a new slogan!!! -LOL

Cheers. -Piggy

I always see your passion in your words mate.

[LGC]

Going back to chemistry 101... the system naturally seeks equilibrium. This is the main thing to keep in mind.

[PigFish]

Yes, there was water dripping and I did not want to risk it, and when refilling the xikar it jumps to 82%+ and really makes the cigars too humid. That happened on an old humidor, my new one is so new that I havent had to recharge the xikar. Here is the diamond crown water humidifier: http://www.mccranies...tion system.png (not my picture)

Here is the xikar gel: http://i289.photobuc...XR8/Xikar-1.jpg (not my picture)

As I understood the beads, I would stick them in there and it would release moisture until it reached the set humidity.

If I put in a bunch of moist cigars eventually it would absorb any additional humidity. If it needs a constant water supply I dont understand how everyone uses them. Perhaps I should keep the water humidifier in there in that case?

I am going to challenge you a bit. We will call this the "n" th degree test. If you put your beads in a dry room, will they condition the dry room? The answer is no of course, they will not. People project "magic" qualities to desiccants and they are not magic at all. They are a common adsorbent. They will adsorb or desorb until they reach equilibrium with the environment.

This statement, "they will adsorb or desorb until they reach equilibrium with the environment," is only half of the equation. There is no part of your humidor that is static, unless it is not hygroscopic, like plastic. That means the desiccant will give and take, and the rest of the environment will give and take.

If you want to make the beads do all the giving and taking that is in some way possible. First you have to drive them! By forcing air over them and through them you can get them to react faster to the environment. You therefore can manage hysteresis with airflow. That does not solve the problem however, the problem being limited, or too much water in the system. You can only do that with a desiccant if you have a helluva lot of it.

Lets compare a swimming pool to a glass of water. Add an ounce of water to an 8 oz cup and you have changed it over 10%. Add the same ounce to 30000 gallons and you have not really affected it at all. The desiccant is somewhat the same except that every addition or removal of water vapor from it will result in a change in PMC and therefore relocate the intersection of lines on the isotherm to a new given ErH. The more desiccant you have the smaller percentage change in PMC, the smaller the move on the isotherm.

This is why I wrote extensively above about looking at the system as a micro climate within a macro climate. I feel this is very important.

A part of that writing consisted of a comparison of micro climates, porous ones verses sealed ones. If the delta between your micro climate and your macro climate is wide, where the macro is dryer, then you have to consider that your system will lose water to the macro all the time. This means 24/7. The bigger the delta and the higher the temperature, the more air flow, the faster the water will exit your micro and join the ranks of the macro.

One of the biggest mistakes that I see enthusiasts make, is not knowing their macro climate conditions. I bring back the cops and the riot analogy.

This was the goal of my writing to you. So that you will look at the complete picture and make smart decisions based on what you know, not what you guess.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with your beads. What is wrong is the understanding that you have of them. You are not totally wrong about them, as they will do what you mentioned. But they are not magic! They are also not like a fuel cell on your car. They don't let you drive at any speed until the tank runs dry! They are more like a battery. They have a supply, the larger the battery the larger the supply. They will drain however, just like the battery as you use them as a supply. As the battery declines in potential (the voltage drops) so does the PMC and the intersection of that line with the isotherm. This means that they are drying out as they supply water. If you pull water out of them, and you test them, they will no longer be in equilibrium at 65 rH (assuming that is where you started). They will be something less than that. If you are using a small amount of beads, and 4 ounces is not a lot, then the change will be big. If you are using a lot of them then the change will be less.

This is one reason why I like to refer to them as a "buffer." Buffering sealed environments is what they do best. They are not the best "water" supply because they are not liquid water. Liquid water is replenished by adding more liquid water. Easy peezzy as they say! Beads on the other hand should be conditioned via a system of knowing their isotherm and providing them with the correct ErH or water requirements to meet your requirements. I am not really going to go through the proper way to condition beads here and now. Most people don't really want to take the trouble to go through it anyway.

If you have a better understand of beads now then when we started my desire to edify has been satisfied. I just don't like to see people potentially ruining their cigars, nor do I like to see them perpetuating myths and believing myth when there is science and proof that easily dispels it.

Cheers! -the Pig

[White]

I am not thinking of them as magic, I understand they deplete just like anything else. What you have me thinking now is the beads will suck every last drop of moisture from my cigars in order to keep their equilibrium. So how do I know when to recharge them?

Please tell me how you would set up my humidor. Here is how it is: http://i.imgur.com/PVYN7h.jpg

[Zacapa]

I am not thinking of them as magic, I understand they deplete just like anything else. What you have me thinking now is the beads will suck every last drop of moisture from my cigars in order to keep their equilibrium. So how do I know when to recharge them?

Tell me how you would set up my humidor. Here is how it is: http://i.imgur.com/PVYN7h.jpg

Im out of my league but I will try to preempt Pig:

Im guessing the first thing he will ask is

1 what is the RH in your closet?

2 Whats the temperature in your closet?

3 whats the air movement like in your closet? - im guessing its pretty still but if you have aircon etc it will cause a draft as well as pulling moisture from your closet.

4 how many ounces of water do you refill your humidifiers with and how often (which is something that will be affected by the outside RH and Temp and its ability to draw moisture from your humidor)

[Zacapa]

Pig: I thought I was on the same page as you after your posts in the HCM Beads thread - im actually now a bit confused.

It was probably not your intention but it's almost like you are disssuading people from using beads as humidifiers?? But assuming you are still recommending them: Would I be right in saying that you are emphasising the notion that for beads to be successful you need to already have your humidor at a pretty steady RH - and then whenever your beads are getting low in moisture content removing them from humidor and hydrating them through passing moist air over them? (as you said Im sure you have a more sophisticated commercial way fo doing this.. but I am thinking of us Jo Averages at home).

Or alternatively that all beads should be accompanied by a container of water in a humidor?? and that the beads could then help buffer against the RH climbing and climbing

Im interested to hear your thoughts as I may be way off here

[White]

Pig: I thought I was on the same page as you after your posts in the HCM Beads thread - im actually now a bit confused.

It was probably not your intention but it's almost like you are disssuading people from using beads as humidifiers?? But assuming you are still recommending them: Would I be right in saying that you are emphasising the notion that for beads to be successful you need to already have your humidor at a pretty steady RH - and then whenever your beads are getting low in moisture content removing them from humidor and hydrating them through passing moist air over them? (as you said Im sure you have a more sophisticated commercial way fo doing this.. but I am thinking of us Jo Averages at home).

Or alternatively that all beads should be accompanied by a container of water in a humidor?? and that the beads could then help buffer against the RH climbing and climbing

Im interested to hear your thoughts as I may be way off here

This is exactly what I'm wondering.

And at what point do you know the beads are getting low on moisture content?

[White]

Im out of my league but I will try to preempt Pig:

Im guessing the first thing he will ask is

1 what is the RH in your closet?

2 Whats the temperature in your closet?

3 whats the air movement like in your closet? - im guessing its pretty still but if you have aircon etc it will cause a draft as well as pulling moisture from your closet.

4 how many ounces of water do you refill your humidifiers with and how often (which is something that will be affected by the outside RH and Temp and its ability to draw moisture from your humidor)

I will measure these over night but I'm pretty sure these are close:

1 35-45

2 70-73

3 no fans, only circulation is when opening the door. 1-2/day

4 This is a new humidor larger than the others I use. I also had it out in the dining room below a vent with a window a few feet away where it was hanging around 63% and 73F, I figure that used more of the water than it will where it has been for a while and currently is at 68% and 72F. On top of that, I topped off the xikar unit with some water when it was in the dry location to see if that would make a difference. So I can't report on its rate of loss quite yet.

[PigFish]

Pig: I thought I was on the same page as you after your posts in the HCM Beads thread - im actually now a bit confused.

It was probably not your intention but it's almost like you are disssuading people from using beads as humidifiers?? But assuming you are still recommending them: Would I be right in saying that you are emphasising the notion that for beads to be successful you need to already have your humidor at a pretty steady RH - and then whenever your beads are getting low in moisture content removing them from humidor and hydrating them through passing moist air over them? (as you said Im sure you have a more sophisticated commercial way fo doing this.. but I am thinking of us Jo Averages at home).

Or alternatively that all beads should be accompanied by a container of water in a humidor?? and that the beads could then help buffer against the RH climbing and climbing

Im interested to hear your thoughts as I may be way off here

This is a pretty good summation. Beads can be used as a humidifier in largely air tight, stable systems.

Beads are great products and I am not attempting to dissuade anyone from using them. I am trying to explain their highest and best use. I seem to be doing a poor job of it if I am confusing people.

Mr. While, now you are on the track that I wished to put you on!

In dry environments desktop humidors are not easy to keep. They are not easy to keep in wet ones either, but dry is better than wet. They may need to be checked daily for condition issues. That is another point I am making. Watch your desktop humidor closely and often. Log their performance based on known ambient conditions. Keep a hygrometer on top of it as well as in it!

Mr. White your humidor is better off by having beads in it verses nothing at all. They hold a limited amount of water and that water will deplete slightly slower than if your cigars had no supplemental system at all. You can "buy" a depletion rate with beads! And you can buy a cheaper one with plain ol' water!!! What that means is you can buy more beads and slow the depletion until you have a humidor filled with beads and no cigars! Humidor systems are full of trade offs. The trade is your time and your money, for stability and peace of mind! Hmmm.... Throw sanity in there somewhere. I traded mine away a long time ago... Probably for a good data logger. -LOL

You can try mixing media. Mixing a water supply with beads generally leads to over humidification, but so does a free water supply in any humidor. You have a loss rate. You need to match it.

I would try leaving your beads in on one end of the humidor and attempt to take a simple humidifier and supplement water with it at the opposite end. I used to use florist foam, pressed into a stainless cup with straight walls, with a straw hole punched through the center because I was tired of spending my life's savings on stupid little pucks that would mold and leak water. I would use a syringe or other means to measure water and dose it with say 20mL water and test the whole system. Add small measured amounts of water. Watch and wait! Keep a log.

I would test, test, test until I would eventually throw the who thing in the trash and go automated!!! (Read this with a little humor please, as it is my life's story). I have been smoking cigars for 29 years now and in my climate I have never been able to satisfy myself with the function of a desktop humidor. As a result I keep accessories in them and not cigars. If you stay in this "hobby" you will likely suffer the same fate! -LOL If automation is not your thing, you will likely go the ice-chest route.

I have two humidifiers running 24/7 in my home currently. On the top of one of my humidor projects "Frankin-dor" there is a certified hygrometer reading 23.2 rH. It is near impossible to keep up with that kind of delta with anything other than automation. Automation is what works for me. In saying it I am not dissuading you or others from their own paths. I am admitting failure at making other paths work for me!

Cheers, and again, good luck on your projects!!! -Ray

[Zacapa]

Ah good - so I pretty much was still on the same page. Thanks for the clarification

As with so many things I can see why people prefer the bliss of ignorance to the science of storing their cigars: its like slowly opening pandora's box once you go down that path!!! your dreams become filled with neverending line graphs of temp and RH and some nights you wake in a cold sweat having seen readings of 110F and 10%RH ....it was only a dream, it was only a dream....

[Guest Robo]

Can I ask a question? (Do I dare??? )

I know that a 50/50 solution of propylene glycol (PG) to H2O will supply water vapour at 70% RH at 70degF. Is there some ratio of PG to H2O that will supply water vapour at 65% RH at 70degF?

What I'm thinking is to have a PG/H2O foam pack AND some humidity beads in my wooden desktop humidor at the same time. The PG/H2O would be the source of water vapour and the beads would prevent wild fluctuations on RH. I would like to make the system 65% RH at 70degF though, hence my original question.

[Doug535i]

So Pig, to re-cap in layman's terms. Beads have a place in the humidor, as a buffer ( something that will help minimize large RH swings ) if properly acclimated to the target RH. In a perfect world where the humidor would be perfectly sealed and not opened ( as in for long term storage), the beads would most likely suffice in keeping RH stable. In a humidor that doesn't have perfect sealing an automated water source, ie... Oasis, Hydra or Gel type system will still be needed to replenish any RH degradation over time. The main purpose of the beads as I gather, is for stability only, not as a stand-alone humidification device ( or magic ) as you say

[dpodiluk]

Thanks Doug, that's what I got from all this too. I'm new to this and all the information out there, good and bad, is over whelming. Glad we have people like Pig helping us.