Inexpensive Silica Beads for Your Humidor -- Yes Please! But There's a Catch . . .

[CanuckSARTech]

Very well said, Ray. Bravo. Interesting to see your progress on this.

Now if only you can get your hands on H S.A.'s marketing and product development departments....

[Wil]

Some great info in this thread.

I have always recharged the beads by applying water directly. While they still work fine, I will try using a bowl of distilled water at the bottom of the humi instead.

[PigFish]

For those still engaged in this thread here is a graph of differing desiccant products and some relative performance based on how much they adsorb and under what conditions they adsorb it!

It should be understood that all materials that are hygroscopic, do not hold the same amounts of water per gram of material, nor are the relative rates of adsorption based on the relative humidity or temperature of their environments the same for each product or material. Like it or not, there are complex factors at play here, even in something as simple as your humidor.

Whether you are a single desiccant user, or a blender (as I am) there are ways to bend the adsorption isotherms of these products to match what you are seeking in protecting tobacco.

I am not going to get "ultra" technical here. Some of my research and data are now what I consider "trade secrets." While I love to share with my friends here, I have come to a crossroad where I will sometime soon be selling this stuff and no longer a disinterest party.

Regardless of the profit motive... my reputation as an objective purveyor of facts will never change!

Cheers, -the Pig

[Colt45]

Whether you are a single desiccant user, or a blender (as I am) there are ways to bend the adsorption isotherms of these products to match what you are seeking in protecting tobacco.

I am not going to get "ultra" technical here. Some of my research and data are now what I consider "trade secrets." While I love to share with my friends here, I have come to a crossroad where I will sometime soon be selling this stuff and no longer a disinterest party.

Regardless of the profit motive... my reputation as an objective purveyor of facts will never change!

Cheers, -the Pig

Ray, when you are satisfied with your final product, I'd love hear about it What are your thoughts (and member's thoughts) on the different

silica products as they pertain to various storage solutions? For example, I know you've spent a great deal of time perfecting your active

coolers, and I imagine it makes sense, in that scenario, to use the "best" product available. For members who rely on less active solutions

such as coolers, desktops, tupper, etc, do you feel the top grade desiccants a good choice - are they more capable of maintaining stable climate

in these situations?

[PigFish]

This is a complex question Ross.

Here are some hints. There are vital areas for tobacco. If you look carefully at the chart you can probably determine that there are better desiccants for storage of tobacco than others, just based on the chart.

I can no longer be specific because I now have a profit motive, what I now consider trade secrets. Straight silicon dioxide products are really good products (the engineered ones, not the low grade ones). They have trade-offs as I have stated earlier. High density silica is not water resistant, water resistance is just one factor. Low density products don't hold a lot of water. That means you need to replace cigars in your humidor for desiccant product instead.

None of them are really as efficient as the current sellers claim. I think that is now an axiom in the community. Hardly anyone uses them efficiently. Pounds of desiccants in a bowl is a misuse of an expensive product.

Cost is another factor, but to be honest, most of these retail bead products are a blatant rip-off. The engineered products are much more expensive but a fair mark-up makes them reasonable to most people if the retail producers are not hell bent on rape!

Frankly, filling these with water (pre-conditioning) then selling them by the pound is nothing more than selling people water!!! What a rip-off!!!

Now don't get me wrong, pre-conditioning takes time. And I guess if you cannot condition beads yourself you will need to pay for it. While most of these products are sold wholesale by the weight measure, I believe that they should be sold by volume. It makes way more sense to do so. I can explain this better later.

My products are sourced from.... well lets say they are not Chinese knock off products. Chinese desiccant products are all over the market now. With them putting asbestos back in drywall, lead in kids toys, and melamine in dog food, I don't want their products in with my cigars. I buy from a manufacturer approved industrial supply chain.

What I would like to hear from members is what they consider a reasonable cost for these products. I am considering a retail cost of $15-20/lb of product when considered that way. But I am considering this product dry! If my product contains about 30% water by weight at 60 RH... that means that you get about 30% more product by not buying water!

I am more interest in selling a system. A means by which you can hold your product, circulate air through your product and use the least amount of product as necessary to support your environment. Gread beads are one part of "a system."

For example: Lets say you have one of my powered bead boxes with 1.7 liters of beads in it. You have a sensitive hygrometer and it reads 58 RH. You are wanting to get your humidor to 65 RH. Would it not be really cool if you could look down a chart and determine that you need to add "XX" ML of water to your beads to get them there?

That mate is what I am doing! Trying to make beads fool-proof and easy to use.

Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

All for now! -Ray

[Orion21]

I think that sounds great Ray. $15-$20 is more than fair as a price and if you package it as a full "system" even better. I would welcome better directions than "Spray 80% of the beads with distilled water until they are clear." There is no further information on how to properly maintain the system afterwards or any direction on what to look for when the beads are starting to get old and need to be replaced. AND, I think it would be fantastic if we new 100% the products were not manufactured in China and were free of any and all hazardous materials.

[Ginseng]

Interesting and informative thread. Ross, I don't think you necessarily need to use "much more." The reason has to do with whether your system is in equilibrium. Are you using the silica as a maintenance buffer or as a corrective. If you have well-sealed coolers and the cigars coming in deviate only nominally from the equilibrium RH in the cooler, then you do not need massive amounts of litter. So what do you do when you get in a box and they seem overhumidified? Perhaps it's a bit of a luxury, but I keep a smaller empty cooler for acclimatizing incoming stock that needs it. Generally, this means putting the box in with a small dish of calcium chloride (DampRid from Home Depot) for a few days.

Ray, you are a true wizard and I can't wait to try out your product.

BTW, some of my "prettiest" silica comes from inside Apple computer packaging. Big, clean, tightly-sized spheres.

Wilkey

[PigFish]

I just looked up a "bead" seller on line. They want about $30/lb of beads. Assume that the beads are holding about 30% water. That means you are paying about $2.67/oz of real product, not including water.

The net cost of the beads (dry) is about $43/lb! Wow...

This is why people are looking for lesser expensive products. (I think.) I would rather make less and sell more product to more people and not have them mixing their cigars with potentially unsafe products in order to save a few dollars... Just my 2 cts.

I am not deriding anyones' products or practices. I am just analyzing as I always do, from a consumer prospective.

-Piggy

[Guest rob]

This is why people are looking for lesser expensive products. (I think.) I would rather make less and sell more product to more people and not have them mixing their cigars with potentially unsafe products in order to save a few dollars... Just my 2 cts.

Great - Send me your payment details, Ray!

[Wil]

Piggy, I would buy your product for $30 per pound. It would compete with the other beads on the market and the consumer would be getting a better product and more of it (great marketing potential there)

[BatFastard]

Some great info in this thread!!

[kcheek]

Every now and then I may have to spritz the beads to add a little moisture but thats it.

This is also my method and have never had a problem with damaging the KL.

This is why people are looking for lesser expensive products. (I think.) I would rather make less and sell more product to more people...

This is smart business.

[NMJoe]

Ray, I too will be interested in a reasonably priced, well-engineered product. Thanks for sharing your insight, and please keep us posted as you approach taking your product to market.

Cheer!

Joe

[PigFish]

My friends you honor me! Thank you.

If you have noticed, I am the critical type!!! -LOL Nothing is more criticized by me than my own work.

Frankly I could sell desiccants now, with a clear conscience knowing that my product is better than others. But better, is a matter of personal opinion. I need to prove it to myself.

One thing that I have found out in this process, is that there is a lot to know about desiccants. They can be something sold for cats to tinkle in, as well as complex engineered molecular sieves. There is amazing science at work here.

I have dispelled a lot of myths and even some of my own beliefs in the process of experimenting with them. Sorption isotherms (graphs of performance) are closely guarded trade secrets and performance must be proven empirically.

Here is something else you can do to help me along. Tell me what you do and don't like about the products that you are using. Tell me what YOU want.

I started this project having friends send me pictures of humidor projects and asking me to help debug them. I can't count the numbers of pictures I have with a bowl of beads in the middle of a humidor. Every time I thought, Jesus, that is a waste of storage space! That thought has brought me here.

I could just start selling the "stuff," but that is not me. I want the very best product at a very fair price. I want clean, safe products. If I don't want it as a consumer, I cannot rationalize selling it to a friend, regardless of the profit incentive. I am that kinda' guy!

There is no way I am gonna' make a living at this!!! This is a way to help other smokers preserve their cigars and advance our common interest. Sure, I would like some compensation for the work and the money I have put into it but the goal has never been to soak my friends. If I can't manage a better product then people should simply stay with what they are buying now. I am very consumer oriented, even as a seller. If I can pick it apart, scientifically, logically, economically or otherwise, I can't see myself selling it to you!

Cheers, -Piggy

[PigFish]

This is what I mean by system.

This "system" is a means to hold your beads and allow them to "breathe" efficiently. Tons of beads without circulation is a terrible waste of money and in fact will never adjust the climate of your system within a reasonable time frame, especially if you have frequent air exchanges.

This is a 1.7 litre box. It is not too expensive (a must) and machined by me to fit my fans and filters. All the hardware is stainless and even the connectors are gold plated. I have chosen what I consider the best components for the money.

I have burnt out a few power supplies but I have been running some of these non-stop for the better part of a year now. I have burnt up a few fans... by wiring them backwards... -LOL All things that I needed to experience so that the consumer does not have too!

I used to think that my beads were capable of working in smaller amounts. While I will sell smaller enclosures they will truly be for smaller areas. I have yet to work out suggested sizes that are meaningful.

My goal is to sell kits, finished units, beads, parts and data loggers. You name it. I even want to get into the PLC controller market. The fact is, no one really sells a good one programmed for cigar use.

This is a static box, no fans.

Box size, bead amount, fan location, fan size... all factors that make for an efficient product. The product has to be cost effective as well. I will never get "scientific perfection" but I just want to be assured that my customer gets his/her monies worth.

I will sell the boxes for those who just want them, powered or un-powered for their own beads.

All for now. -Piggy

Orion... sorry for jacking your thread!!! Yes, the boxes even work with cat litter!!! -LOL

[Orion21]

No worries Piggy I find all of this so interesting. Please comtinue!