mazolaman Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 And.....how 'bout them Detroit Tigers??????? Yeah, and have you seen the age of policemen these? Barely in to long trousers....tsk.
CaptainQuintero Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Evil, if you are referring to the embargo as evil, ha! I know more than a few Cubans that would say castro is evil. FINALLY, I do so enjoy public discourse. Our two countries allow us to have and publicly voice differing views. Could we have this very same public discourse in Cuba? In the interest of the discussion, would the public discussion be allowed under Batista's regime? Regardless of the outcome, Fidel, Raul, Camacho, Che and the spirit and cause of the revolution share more with the 1776 revolution then many people may be comfortable admitting. The leaders were not saints, Brothers fought Brothers, freedom was wanted and ultimately it could be argued that both countries are a great distance from the original aims and aspirations of their respective revolutions, regardless of how well meaning the original aims were. Simply replacing one extreme political system/religious belief/economic system with another will not solve anything, Cuba will eventually get to the right place but I think it will be because of the drive of the Cuban people, not some trumped up politician grandstanding their own side's political/economic beliefs.
Colt45 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 i will not recoil from my view that the american actions pertaining to cuba have been utterly shameful, petty, appalling - you name it. if individuals pushed their politicioans hard enough then perhaps this would have been long resolved. Perhaps true Ken, perhaps true. But perhaps it is also true that if people world wide would have pushed their respective governments to choose Cuba over doing business with the U.S, it might also have been resolved long ago. The shame.
Lotusguy Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I think this thread has crossed the line of "no discussion of US politics" - just saying...
cgarner Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I think most people realize that the embargo is unnecessary or inadvertently hurting the general population of Cuba. I remember a poll that showed that a majority of U.S. citizens approved removing the embargo. Unfortunately, it seems that it isn't a top priority for any of our legislators to fight that battle. I'm sure it would be a long hard fight but I think a positive outcome could be achieved. Bashing U.S citizens doesn't do anything to improve the situation and only dirties the forum and is completely uncalled for. However, bashing the politicians is open game. As for the purpose of this thread, I think the U.S is wrong, but they have a chance to make things right. As far as over stepping their bounds is a stretch IMHO. The money was transferred to a U.S bank therefore I bet the US has some legal authority. However, the transfer should have been canceled. Since it is too late for that someone with a cooler head needs to return the money since no illegal merchandise was actually purchased. I see this as a stupid mistake that could be avoided in the future. On another note, I highly doubt a person living in Amsterdam buying marijuana would be allowed to complete the transaction if the money was wired through a U.S bank. I don't see much difference between the two situations. Both are legal products in the country the transaction originated, but illegal in the U.S.A.
Orion21 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 ^ With all due respect, America is not responsible for what is wrong with Cuba. There's a fellow (or two) named Castro that you might want to Google before making such statements. I am certain that if Cuba were to adopt capitalism today then, regardless or any US embargo, Cuba would be a whole different kind of place in a very short period of time (for the better). It was an oasis before the revolution, or does anyone read their history? They also decided to allow the USSR to install nuclear missile placements less than 100 miles from our mainland and the people who allowed that to happen are still in power. Yes the embargo killed Cuba's economy, but it only quickened the inevitable based on who has run the country since the 60's. I personally think the embargo should be lifted, but if Cuba wanted it lifted they would have taken the necessary steps years and years ago. Their "revolution" is what killed them along with Castro's ego.
Colt45 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I think this thread has crossed the line of "no discussion of US politics" - just saying... The forum owner is allowed to open the gate - whether we walk through or not is up to us....
Puros Y Vino Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I think this thread has crossed the line of "no discussion of US politics" - just saying... It's definitely close to call. I do find this thread very interesting though. As long as the debate stays on the points and not the persons making them I say leave it be.
Orion21 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I wouldn't say there is US bashing, just strong opinions about the continued embargo and as a citizen of the good ol' US of A it seems ok to this point But if Ken gets to telling us how he REALLY feels I fear for the thread.
El Presidente Posted March 7, 2012 Author Posted March 7, 2012 Jesus H Christ.....I just posted a link to a news article ...like I have done hundreds of times before. To say Americans should hang their head in shame is a moronic statement. I don't carry the weight for the idiotic decisions our politicians make in this country and neither should our US brothers. I find it disappointing that purportedly intelligent people can't separate a Govt from its people. You might as well and go blame our mate Jose for not rising up against Fidel. US Governments have somehow managed to propagate and promote one of the great failed public policies in history....... for 50 years. The Castro Govt are human rights abusers and world champion incompetents who despite having a fertile land somehow managed to import 81% of their food in 2009/10. They both deserve each other. Lucky they are such close neighbours. As for the suggestion that if the rest of the world joined this idiocy then it would be over.... I beg to differ. In order to take such an action and to have a shred of integrity then the same action would need to be taken against nations in Africa, The gulf, Asia, South and Central America. Transparent hypocrisy is not what the world needs more of. If the US Government wishes to pretend the embargo is a success then let it go ahead. However the rest of the world wants no part in it and should retaliate in situations where its own companies or citizens are threatened when dealing commercially with Cuba. In the case of the article a temporary ban on US exports to Denmark would suffice. If the rest of the world got together and worked in blocks to achieve the same, the embargo wouldn't last a month.
Puros Y Vino Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Jesus H Christ..... Careful Rob! Remember your heart! I completely agree with your statement regarding the differences between the politicians and regular citizens of any nation. Canadian politicians definitely don't speak for me. And I've met plenty Americans that are completely different from their politicians to paint all of them with the same brush.
sblevit Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Let's call a spade a spade. There is only one reason that the embargo still exists -- US politicians who are running for president are too afraid to alienate the Cuban-American vote in Florida, which is a key "swing state" in presidential elections. So if you're looking to lay blame for the embargo, there are your two targets.
Rushman Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Let's call a spade a spade. There is only one reason that the embargo still exists -- US politicians who are running for president are too afraid to alienate the Cuban-American vote in Florida, which is a key "swing state" in presidential elections. So if you're looking to lay blame for the embargo, there are your two targets. Key swing state is an understatement. Can't win without Florida is more like it. Agreed by the way.
mazolaman Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Let's call a spade a spade. There is only one reason that the embargo still exists -- US politicians who are running for president are too afraid to alienate the Cuban-American vote in Florida, which is a key "swing state" in presidential elections. So if you're looking to lay blame for the embargo, there are your two targets. We have a winner! There's the truth in a nutshell. The US system( as well as the UK for that matter) will prevent the changes that are desperately needed. The popularity contest means that no leader will do things that really need doing, as they will risk loosing a block of voters.
Orion21 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I'm going to play devil's advocate: What does the US have to gain from lifting the embargo? The US is not the country who can't take care of it's people. The US is also not the country whose internal policies make it impossible for the vast majority of it's citizens to provide for their families. The only country that would gain from the embargo being lifted is Cuba. And when Cuba gains it's close allies would gain as well and the primary ally they have in the region is Venezuela, run by another tyrannical dictator with no love for the US. So I ask again -- what does the US have to gain by lifting the embargo? Also, if every other country in the world is supportive of Cuba and happy to do business with the country why in the world is Cuba in such poverty? Is the US that big of an influence on a country's success or failure or is it something more? Could it actually be Cuba and the Cuban people's fault for their internal poverty? Or is the rest of the world just too scared of the US to invest in Cuba? By keeping Cuba weak the US eliminates a potential security issue 90 miles from it's shores and can afford to wait out the Castro brothers and their regime. Again, I am playing devil's advocate and feel for the plight of the Cuban people. But from a strategic point of view what other options does the US have?
El Presidente Posted March 7, 2012 Author Posted March 7, 2012 I'm going to play devil's advocate: What does the US have to gain from lifting the embargo? The US is not the country who can't take care of it's people. The US is also not the what does the US have to gain by lifting the embargo? Respect Also, if every other country in the world is supportive of Cuba and happy to do business with the country why in the world is Cuba in such poverty? Is the US that big of an influence on a country's success or failure or is it something more? Could it actually be Cuba and the Cuban people's fault for their internal poverty? Or is the rest of the world just too scared of the US to invest in Cuba? No global company with a US Sharholding can really do business with Cuba. I suspect the day is coming where companies such as Nestle, Phillips and others will simply tell the US Govt to go get rooted but the small Cuban market is not worthwhile. I am still surprised that people do not know that the US Govt puts a gun to the head of every multinational dealing with Cuba that has an American shareholding. By keeping Cuba weak the US eliminates a potential security issue 90 miles from it's shores and can afford to wait out the Castro brothers and their regime. Again, I am playing devil's advocate and feel for the plight of the Cuban people. But from a strategic point of view what other options does the US have? Yes alienate an entire country. Brilliant. The biggest risk they have posed in the last 30 years is Salmonela poisoning when eating at the government restaurants. If you are not gaining any ground with the running game for 50 years....you may want to go to the air. Lift the embargo, let opportunity, money, people transfer take root. The Castro's won;t be able to control it.
BrotherBear Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I believe it's the Helms-Burton Act that allows for the confiscation of flow through assets destined for the trade in Cuban goods. This is also why Canadians who use credit cards from Canadian companies that have US backing (MBNA Canada for example) are unable to process transactions in Cuba. Sent by mobile device using Tapatalk.
rckymtn22 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Quote" No global company with a US Sharholding can really do business with Cuba. I suspect the day is coming where companies such as Nestle, Phillips and others will simply tell the US Govt to go get rooted but the small Cuban market is not worthwhile. I am still surprised that people do not know that the US Govt puts a gun to the head of every multinational dealing with Cuba that has an American shareholding." Interesting that the last time I was in Cuba I saw products from a giant Atlanta based company profiting off of Cuba but no gun is put to that companies head. Money speaks, I guess.
El Presidente Posted March 7, 2012 Author Posted March 7, 2012 Quote" No global company with a US Sharholding can really do business with Cuba. I suspect the day is coming where companies such as Nestle, Phillips and others will simply tell the US Govt to go get rooted but the small Cuban market is not worthwhile. I am still surprised that people do not know that the US Govt puts a gun to the head of every multinational dealing with Cuba that has an American shareholding." Interesting that the last time I was in Cuba I saw products from a giant Atlanta based company profiting off of Cuba but no gun is put to that companies head. Money speaks, I guess. You will also see Mercedes, Coca Cola, Nestle etc. However these products have been purchased through intermediaries (grey market) at inflated prices. Anytime you elongate the distribution channel you pay more. In the real world a Mexican or US distributor would service Cuba and a host of other smaller countries such a Panama. Economies of scale etal. Cuba has been cut off from that. Imagine trying to run an international banking system. It is insidious and touches every aspect of life. The Cuban on the street ends up paying ridiculous amounts for simple foreign goods and queing for the privilege
mazolaman Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I'm going to play devil's advocate: me too. What does the US have to gain from lifting the embargo? The US is not the country who can't take care of it's people. The US is also not the country whose internal policies make it impossible for the vast majority of it's citizens to provide for their families. The only country that would gain from the embargo being lifted is Cuba. And when Cuba gains it's close allies would gain as well and the primary ally they have in the region is Venezuela, run by another tyrannical dictator with no love for the US. So I ask again -- what does the US have to gain by lifting the embargo? The basic premise of this is incorrect. The discussion is regarding Cuba, not the US. The US has applied these sanctions for many years, and has applied leverage on many of its trading partners to also apply these sanctions, ie deal with them, and we won't deal with you. The question is similar to "what do I have to gain by giving to charity". Well, another answer may be that Havana is the only city I've been to that doesn't have a mcdonalds, so maybe when this nasty embargo is over, the US can move it's flagship businesses in. Also, if every other country in the world is supportive of Cuba and happy to do business with the country why in the world is Cuba in such poverty? Is the US that big of an influence on a country's success or failure or is it something more? Could it actually be Cuba and the Cuban people's fault for their internal poverty? Or is the rest of the world just too scared of the US to invest in Cuba? Of course Cuba is corrupt. As is the US, the UK and Europe is demonstrating the high levels of corruption too... Every other country does not do business with Cuba, as most are leant on by the US. In this isolation, the Cubans have developed a first class health system, often lacking medicines due to the embargo, but.. Obama tried to bring in a health system, but that is rapidly disappearing.Please also consider their excellent free education system. It's hard to keep a straight face to hear someone accusing Cuba of being corrupt, considering in the UK we are now seeing that all our leading lights are as rotten as hell...bankers, journalists, police, politicians..... By keeping Cuba weak the US eliminates a potential security issue 90 miles from it's shores and can afford to wait out the Castro brothers and their regime. Again, I am playing devil's advocate and feel for the plight of the Cuban people. But from a strategic point of view what other options does the US have? Yeah right...Cuba is on the march....ready to invade the USA. If the USA dislikes "communism" so much, why does it owe trillions to the Chinese?
rckymtn22 Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 You will also see Mercedes, Coca Cola, Nestle etc. However these products have been purchased through intermediaries (grey market) at inflated prices. Anytime you elongate the distribution channel you pay more. In the real world a Mexican or US distributor would service Cuba and a host of other smaller countries such a Panama. Economies of scale etal. Cuba has been cut off from that. Imagine trying to run an international banking system. It is insidious and touches every aspect of life. The Cuban on the street ends up paying ridiculous amounts for simple foreign goods and queing for the privilege True Rob, but the producers such as Coca Cola is still profiting off of those products being Cuba no matter how they get there.
sloth Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 "I just posted a link to a news article" I don't care who's website this is... Only a TROLL would say this! The embargo conversation cracks me up... I think the reasons are simple... what I've read on this forum in the last few years I can only come to the conclusion that the US's Embargo of Cuba will not end because of a secret Canadian conspiracy to keep Cuba as an affordable tropical vacation spot. Or... Anti-Corporatism terrorists have infiltrated the US Federal government so we will never seen a Starbucks in Havana. Not to forget to mention that when the embargo ends there will be nothing but 5x64 sized Cohiba cigars, a le Hoyo will have the same quality of a Guantanamera, & cA will give a Cuban/Mexican mixed filler Maduro wrapped cigar made by Rocky Patel a 94 rating. I kid, maybe, probably not, who knows... What I thought I knew is that we had a President who could get this done... I also thought there was new data on the Florida-thing as weakening. I also figured oil would be a deciding blow... so far I'm wrong. When the people who cling to the past die off and when, more importantly, the money is too good... It will end. What would the US gain? I don't know, but Nebraska would love it.
mazolaman Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Yep, the quality of Habanos would certainly plummet if the Us market was suddenly wide open....hmmmm
Colt45 Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Jesus H Christ.....I just posted a link to a news article ...like I have done hundreds of times before. When it comes to this type of topic, why would you expect this time to be different than any other? The outcome was inevitable. As long as I've been a member of this international forum there's been a palpable undercurrent of anti U.S. sentiment. It sometimes gets spun as the government and not the people, but it is what it is. At times a few members take any opportunity to take their jabs, most often it stays supressed, but when opportunity arises, it makes itself fully known like it has here in this thread. I admit it used to anger me, but anymore I just give thanks that when my parents emigrated, they chose to go to the U.S. and not anywhere else.
El Presidente Posted March 8, 2012 Author Posted March 8, 2012 You know Colt, I have met many anti Americans but barely a handful who have ventured past LAX airport. To a man and woman they are ignorant morons. Having spent plenty of time In and seen much of the US you can hardly reconcile the media's portrayal of the US internationally. It is appalling in its inaccuracies. Yet i have no problem kicking the US govt over the embargo (which is a Cuban and international issue as much as a US one). I have no problem separating Govt and people. You can lambast the idiocy of Australian govt legislation on advertising/packaging/ international affairs and I don't care as it no attack on me . I would probably agree :-) There is no room for anti Americanism here and you are right that I see it in 3-4 members from te to time. They can't help themselves to turn the knife. I delete when I see it. That is 4 out of 6000. There is also a hypersensitivity that when questions against a failed policy (and in this case it's implications) are raised some members rally to the flag and claim harrassment. I am apolitical in that I hate them all. However if I take a shot at a policy of your Govt how in hells name is that taking a shot at you? The governments ( both) are responsible for this. The vast majority of people on both sides of the ocean have no want for it. This is not solely a US political issue because it is cross border affecting Cuba and other countries ( and it's citizens ) as is seen in this article. I am at the specialist having follow up tests. Running an hour late. I am grumpy ! LOL!
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