Pooka prefers EL's...

[PigFish]

Cheers!

[El Presidente]

I thought ET went home?

[Habanakane21]

.....and Cuaba's too it seems!!!! oh oh

[PigFish]

I thought ET went home?

ET= Extracted Testicles!!! I would say that describes Pooka well... and unfortunately I am stuck with him! He is home! -Piggy

[Ken Gargett]

most cuaba's come from the other end of animals like that.

ray, have said it before, there are some LE's that are crap but there are also some stunners that make the line worthwhile.

[CanuckSARTech]

I like some of them, but with some of the decisions lately (Montecristo Open line, deletions, etc.), you almost just have to wonder....

Coming....

in....

2011....

the....

most....

eagerly....

awaited....

Habanos....

S....

A....

release....

Guantanamera Piramides EL 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[matt14]

Reminds me of an ex girlfriend with all that hair on the chin!!

[PigFish]

Reminds me of an ex girlfriend with all that hair on the chin!!

Ouch!

Pooka is quite handsome... for a horse!

[PigFish]

most cuaba's come from the other end of animals like that.

ray, have said it before, there are some LE's that are crap but there are also some stunners that make the line worthwhile.

You know Ken this is very true. My problem with EL's is not that they "all" taste like ****; I can't make that claim. My argument is that the inflated price does not get you above average performance or enjoyment. As the per/stick price increases so does the risk. I can be just as easily wowed or disappointed by a standard production cigar at fraction of the price. As a matter of personal experience, I find them to be, in general, of substandard smoking performance when compared to carefully selected standard production cigars. All cigars are individuals; they all have an individual personality. I have found however that generalizations can be made and if followed can improve your odds of getting an above average smoking experience. Some may believe that by selecting EL's gets them that edge. I emphatically disagree with that assessment.

PLUS... I thought this might get me in the picture cigar review contest!!! Pooka needs a new lighter! -LOL -R

[Ken Gargett]

<br />You know Ken this is very true. My problem with EL's is not that they "all" taste like ****; I can't make that claim. My argument is that the inflated price does not get you above average performance or enjoyment. As the per/stick price increases so does the risk. I can be just as easily wowed or disappointed by a standard production cigar at fraction of the price. As a matter of personal experience, I find them to be, in general, of substandard smoking performance when compared to carefully selected standard production cigars. All cigars are individuals; they all have an individual personality. I have found however that generalizations can be made and if followed can improve your odds of getting an above average smoking experience. Some may believe that by selecting EL's gets them that edge. I emphatically disagree with that assessment. <br /><br />PLUS... I thought this might get me in the picture cigar review contest!!! Pooka needs a new lighter! -LOL -R<br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

we have a photo comp?

ray, i understand but i would argue that a few of them, the cohiba DC's, sublimes, hoyo pyramides, partagas pyramides and more were of such stunning standards that the extra was worth it and worth the gamble. and in the early days, say the first 3-5 years of EL's, they were certainly not expensive. the original releases were bargains compared to ordinary production smokes - i suspect as it was a bit of a toe in the water thing.

it is a little like wine. you can drink well for te rest of your life at $10 or $20 a bottle but isn't seeking out the stuff at the very top of the tree exciting, even if a bit of a gamble? burgundy has long been the prime example. plenty of very average over priced plonk but when it nails it, nothing comes close. i'm not saying that nothing comes close to the very top EL's but they are right up there.

[MontrealRon]

we have a photo comp?

ray, i understand but i would argue that a few of them, the cohiba DC's, sublimes, hoyo pyramides, partagas pyramides and more were of such stunning standards that the extra was worth it and worth the gamble. and in the early days, say the first 3-5 years of EL's, they were certainly not expensive. the original releases were bargains compared to ordinary production smokes - i suspect as it was a bit of a toe in the water thing.

it is a little like wine. you can drink well for te rest of your life at $10 or $20 a bottle but isn't seeking out the stuff at the very top of the tree exciting, even if a bit of a gamble? burgundy has long been the prime example. plenty of very average over priced plonk but when it nails it, nothing comes close. i'm not saying that nothing comes close to the very top EL's but they are right up there.

I think you make some good points, Ken.

The EL program is just over ten years old now, and much has changed since its early days.

I would look at a division into two distinct eras - 2000-04, and 2005-date.

My first box of ELs is a Partagas Piramides.

It is perhaps the best box that I own.

The price, in Cuba, was CUC126.50, the same as for a box of Monte #2.

Initial reviews, BTW, were not so good.

My next foray into ELs was the R&J Hermosos #2, from '04.

As they were on the market for a long time, I ended up buying four boxes.

My cost averaged $230/box, delivered, not out of line with regular production prices.

These cigars were also widely criticized at the time.

To my taste, they are still improving, but are starting to show real character.

I also bought one box of the '04 Partagas Serie D No. 1,

which I have recently broken. Still young, but amazing cigars,

though starting to get pricey. No regrets here!

I have heard good things about most other Els from this period,

and, to my mind, they represented some of the best quality/price ratios going.

The biggest problem was getting one's hands on them,

as most were hard to find in Cuba, and sold out quickly elsewhere.

The second period inverses the quality/price equation,

and Ray, your analysis fits these cigars exactly.

Just as regular production cigars took a sharp turn towards better quality and consistancy,

the EL program took a bad turn, towards ever increasing prices and a lack of imagination.

Previous editions were re-released, at much higher prices, and of sometimes dubious quality.

As time went on, the choices became stranger still, e.g. the Party D5 and the Mag 48,

both more expensive than their larger prototypes, but not necessarily better.

No doubt, there are some good cigars among the flakey recent releases,

but whether they are worth the prices asked is another question.

[Colt45]

it is a little like wine. you can drink well for te rest of your life at $10 or $20 a bottle but isn't seeking out the stuff at the very top of the tree exciting, even if a bit of a gamble?

But are ELs really supposed to be of much higher quality than regular production, or are they simply supposed to be sizes not normally found

in the line? I believe it's the latter, and that they should probably be priced more accordingly - but that's subjective.

And while for the most part, it doesn't seem like HSA touts them as being overly superior in quality, it also doesn't seem that they try to dispel

the notion either.

[PigFish]

While historical references are interesting, relevance is lost in it. I think I wrote about this once! What is lost is lost. Out of production cigars are gone. Saying that the EL program "was" great is like me saying that Seleccion Privada is the best CC. While many of us may have a stockpile of their favorite cigar, using that stockpile to make a point is not relevant to most of us reading here today. Those of you interested in new cigars stay in the game. I say again I am a relic. Romancing over cigars from past years makes one anachronistic.

Where we parallel is that we are both bemoaning the loss of a cigar, or group of cigars that should continue to be made at realistic prices. Of the 5 or 6 examples used as stunning cigars, when you add up the EL's and RE's I still don't see the percentages in favor of making the EL/RE buyer an owner of better than average cigars. If the ones that you enjoyed made the buying of them worth it; I say bravo! I have not been that lucky. I don't think the Sublime is all that good, certainly not worth the coin, nor do I have any EL that I think is better than what I smoke daily. I actually gave away most of my Sublimes!

I think that I have different tastes than most. The fault, if fault is the right word likely belongs with me. A lot of guys like these cigars and while I review a cigar with open eyes, I am time after time disappointed by EL's/RE's. I don't wish to pick on the PCC 2009 RA release but that is a place to start. While I applauded the price point, of the six or so that I have smoked, these are inconsistent as hell and the bad ones don't offset the mediocre ones. Maybe there were/are some good ones! I did not get any. How many do I have to buy to get a good one? What is wrong with the whole picture? Frankly if they make regular production cigars this bad, people won't come back and buy the line any longer. I think it is more likely that they put real effort into regular production than they do the Editions!

So here I go ranting on Editions again!!! What a surprise. While on the topic. That Cuaba P EL was really a **** cigar. A le Hoyo du Depute would have blown it away!

-Piggy

[PigFish]

But are ELs really supposed to be of much higher quality than regular production, or are they simply supposed to be sizes not normally found

in the line? I believe it's the latter, and that they should probably be priced more accordingly - but that's subjective.

And while for the most part, it doesn't seem like HSA touts them as being overly superior in quality, it also doesn't seem that they try to dispel

the notion either.

Ross, price and quality go hand in hand with most consumers. I would say that the limited notion of these cigars at least implies superiority to standard production. Many of us know this to be false and this is why we speak of it so passionately. There is not much point in making a limited run of "substandard" cigars, now is there? Charging a premium for substandard cigars does not really make much sense either. JMHO. -

[Colt45]

Charging a premium for substandard cigars does not really make much sense either. JMHO. -

Ray, I'm pretty much in agreement on all points, and understand Ken's and Ron's outlook as well. Though I don't necessarily feel that a direct comparison

is always fair, I'll go back to KG's wine analogy: Purchasing a properly kept bottle of DRC or Krug might be expensive, but is it really a gamble?

You are all but assured of the quality of the wine in the bottle.

On the other hand, given the variances in opinions here, I agree with the assessment of the RACF. While Rob and others might say it's too early,

and that these are for the long haul, the type of variables reported make me think inconsistency (I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth).

I'll personally add the 2006 Cohiba Piramide EL to the list.

[PigFish]

I am not a wine drinker so I may very well be out to lunch on this one but I don't see wine as a parallel to Editions cigars. Wine, what I know of it anyway is made in batches and is homogenous based on the manufacturing process. If each bottle was made separately in the bottle by a different wine maker according to a plan from a table of grapes the consistency of a wine would likely also suffer. This process would represent the way cigars are made. While I understand the use of analogy or simile, I don't really agree that there is a parallel in any way beyond the broadest sense. I can see the wine value and in that way support the value of your wine based on reputation and process; the way I would view the Cuban cigar as a whole. Only to a limited degree do I see this otherwise carry over to cigars. Older cigars with good reputations have enhanced valuations base on their reputations, the key word is reputation; one borne from past performance. A reputation is earned, not labeled and manufactured as a result of marketing. When you buy a case of reputable wine, where the bottles are likely all very much the same, this adds not only to the reputation but also to the value. That is not true of cigars... where often even the individuals in the same box differ substantially. I don't think that you are ever assured of getting a good box of cigars. You use your likes, your wisdom, the advice of others who's palates you trust and you roll the dice.

The CC cigar is the best of the best. In buying the CC you increase your chances of getting a good cigar, but you are never assured.

Knowing your wine maker may help you get a good bottle of wine year to year. Here is the analogy. I know that I enjoy CC's over that of the NC cigar makers. As a result I buy CC's and not NC cigars. This does not break down to Editions as I see it. They don't deserve a good reputatoin above that of any other CC! Here in lies my argument. Apparently some think they do and I am perhaps guilty of splitting hairs. I think that their reputaion is of inconsistency and poor performance, unlike the Krug! Krug may represent the CC as a whole, the best cigars in the world, but not Editions as a subset of the whole. Editions have the coattails to ride like any new cigar. But they don't deserve an enhanced reputation or value based on a nice box or second label. They don't deserve a predetermined, up front premium based on the fact that we can pick out a few good ones out of the large numbers of those that have now been made.

Great conversation though gents... Great conversation! - Piggy

[MontrealRon]

The point of my post, Ray, was not to wax nostalgic about cigars long gone,

but simply to say that the EL program was really excellent in the beginning,

both in terms of price and quality, then later went astray.

I bought one box of Partagas D3 in '06, as I generally appreciate Partagas, and Corona Gordas.

I'll probably crack it in two or three years. It was too expensive, though.

Nothing since has been of interest, though I did buy one box of the Cuaba '08s,

only because they were in 10s.

Tried one, still too young.

[PigFish]

The point of my post, Ray, was not to wax nostalgic about cigars long gone,

but simply to say that the EL program was really excellent in the beginning,

both in terms of price and quality, then later went astray.

I bought one box of Partagas D3 in '06, as I generally appreciate Partagas, and Corona Gordas.

I'll probably crack it in two or three years. It was too expensive, though.

Nothing since has been of interest, though I did buy one box of the Cuaba '08s,

only because they were in 10s.

Tried one, still too young.

... If anyone is guilty of 'waxing on nostalgically' it is me baby! It is me! -LOL I am stuck in the ******* past when it comes to cigars. So you don't prefer a time that EL's were cheaper and better??? -R

[CanuckSARTech]

The EL program is the greatest invention that the world has EVER SEEN SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!!!!!!