Aging question

[Habanakane21]

Forgive me if this topic has been covered before. I tried searching for it and I couldn't find it.

My question is....Do different CC brands age better than others? or does it just depend on the factory code? I think I remember reading somewhere that some Habanos have a certain time period where they are at their best, is there any truth to this?

I'm asking because it's so hard for me to age cigars. I seem to burn right through them. I can honestly say I have never smoked a CC older than 5 years. So...for instance, I have a box of TEB'07 Bolivar Gigante that taste fantastic right now. But will they taste even better if I age them for another 5 years?

Thanks Shane

[LeafLover]

Honestly, I can't answer this questions with much credibility. The reason being is that I have no patience to age.

So, I try to buy boxes/SLB with some age on them. The median age of my habanos are 2 years, with 4 years being the oldest and 4 months being the newest.

I think generally, all habanos gets better with age. First hand experience: Punch RS11. I have two boxes one year apart and the newer year definitely does not taste as good as the older. Likewise, I can say the PSD4's are better with age as well as the Boli PC's and PLPC's.

[tjhernandez34]

Typically, stronger cigars age better than milder cigars. This is because over extended periods of time the oils in cigars blend together and cigars mellow. If a cigar is mellow to begin with, it will lose the majority of its flavor. Whereas, stronger ones will become more smooth and complex. The Boli Gigantes will age well probably up to 15 years or so.

[Habanakane21]

Honestly, I can't answer this questions with much credibility. The reason being is that I have no patience to age.

So, I try to buy boxes/SLB with some age on them. The median age of my habanos are 2 years, with 4 years being the oldest and 4 months being the newest.

I think generally, all habanos gets better with age. First hand experience: Punch RS11. I have two boxes one year apart and the newer year definitely does not taste as good as the older. Likewise, I can say the PSD4's are better with age as well as the Boli PC's and PLPC's.

It's hard as hell to age 'em huh??? I don't know how they do it!! I think I'll hide my PSD4's, Punch's and Bolivar's in the back of my cabinet for a couple years. Thanks for the help bruddah Leaflover

[Habanakane21]

Typically, stronger cigars age better than milder cigars. This is because over extended periods of time the oils in cigars blend together and cigars mellow. If a cigar is mellow to begin with, it will lose the majority of its flavor. Whereas, stronger ones will become more smooth and complex. The Boli Gigantes will age well probably up to 15 years or so.

Wow!! 15 years. I'll be 52 yrs old..I can't even think that far in advance, but I understand your point. Makes complete sense. I'll need to keep on buying boxes then...smoke the milder cigars and hide the stronger ones for aging. It'll give me something to look for too. Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna make this happen!!! Aloha Shane

[Habanos2000]

I, too, am an impatient ager of cigars. I like to buy products that are ready to be "used" when purchased. That being said, I'm extremely happy with the quality of cigars coming from Cuba the last couple of years. I'd also like to say the few cigars that I have aged, to the tune of 7-8 years, HdM's, SP's, have seem to have peaked and are rolling downhill. So for my own guide, I don't think I'll keep cigars around longer than 5 years of box age unless they show me otherwise.

As far as cigars that do well, I'd vote for Upmann, Boli's, and Party's, pretty much from corona to corona gorda sizes.

[Colt45]

My question is....Do different CC brands age better than others? or does it just depend on the factory code?

I'm asking because it's so hard for me to age cigars. I seem to burn right through them. I can honestly say I have never smoked a CC older than 5 years. So...for instance, I have a box of TEB'07 Bolivar Gigante that taste fantastic right now. But will they taste even better if I age them for another 5 years?

Starting with the BCGs, they may change in five years, but whether they'll they be "better" is obviously subjective and hard to determine. If you really enjoy

them now, try putting a couple away as an experiment, and simply enjoy the rest.

As for the general aging question........ I guess there are many factors. Blend intention, crop quality for the vintages used, etc. Many members have mentioned

that more recent vintages have been more approachable young for many marques.

I've personally found that some need more time than others - Some VRs, Some Upmanns, off the top of my head. It's also personal preference - some members

like a certain amount of brashness, some a more integrated profile. But I do believe there is a point where a cigar reaches it's peak of perfection, and a point where

it simply becomes an old cigar.

It's a learning process that can be part of the fun.

[khomeinist]

Aging cigars to 'perfection' is probably the most complicated and unpredictable aspect in our hobby.

I am constantly trying out cigars from different boxes in my stash to see how the are smoking now relative to what I remember previously and where I expect the box to go in the future. It is an inexact science and at the end of the day, if you like a way a box is smoking .... smoke em up.

There is nothing worse than a box past it's peak that is now flat and boring. This happened to my first box of BRC and I learned from the experience. In my experience, many cigars are very nice 4-5 years after box date. Some cigars I age longer. It takes time to develop a feel for your collection and where it is going.

I strongly disagree with the statement about the relationship between 'strength' and 'aging potential'. I have found that many cigars lighter in body need significant aging to bring out the full aromatic spectrum. Anyone smoking aged El Reys will probably attest to this. I have had Bolivars crash and burn while Trinidads or La Glorias keep humming along.

My overall point is that generalities are a bit difficult with the aging game. In my world, that is part of the enjoyment. No success without failure!!

[Habanakane21]

I, too, am an impatient ager of cigars. I like to buy products that are ready to be "used" when purchased. That being said, I'm extremely happy with the quality of cigars coming from Cuba the last couple of years. I'd also like to say the few cigars that I have aged, to the tune of 7-8 years, HdM's, SP's, have seem to have peaked and are rolling downhill. So for my own guide, I don't think I'll keep cigars around longer than 5 years of box age unless they show me otherwise.

As far as cigars that do well, I'd vote for Upmann, Boli's, and Party's, pretty much from corona to corona gorda sizes.

Yes..all this info is great. 5 years seems reasonable to me. I think I can do 5 years!! At least I'm hoping...Thanks my friend!!

[Habanakane21]

Starting with the BCGs, they may change in five years, but whether they'll they be "better" is obviously subjective and hard to determine. If you really enjoy

them now, try putting a couple away as an experiment, and simply enjoy the rest.

As for the general aging question........ I guess there are many factors. Blend intention, crop quality for the vintages used, etc. Many members have mentioned

that more recent vintages have been more approachable young for many marques.

I've personally found that some need more time than others - Some VRs, Some Upmanns, off the top of my head. It's also personal preference - some members

like a certain amount of brashness, some a more integrated profile. But I do believe there is a point where a cigar reaches it's peak of perfection, and a point where

it simply becomes an old cigar.

It's a learning process that can be part of the fun.

I love it. You boys are answering all my questions beautifully. All very useful info. I guess it comes down to my own personal preference and taste. The experiment begins!!! Thanks a whole lot

[cigcars]

***I'm so glad to see other persons on this forum who don't have the patience or the desire to age our smokes for years and years! I've got cigars very old, but that's because I don't give a **** about them - Graycliff Yellow band & Professionale, El Baton, Arganese specials, Cusanos, Gurkhas, etc. I DON'T have the patience to wait and wait to enjoy my beloved Cubans. I've always heard Bolivars and Ramon Allones's age very well. Apart from that, my hat's off to you guys who talk about getting your smokes and then putting them away for about "five years"! That sure can't be me!

[Habanakane21]

Aging cigars to 'perfection' is probably the most complicated and unpredictable aspect in our hobby.

I am constantly trying out cigars from different boxes in my stash to see how the are smoking now relative to what I remember previously and where I expect the box to go in the future. It is an inexact science and at the end of the day, if you like a way a box is smoking .... smoke em up.

There is nothing worse than a box past it's peak that is now flat and boring. This happened to my first box of BRC and I learned from the experience. In my experience, many cigars are very nice 4-5 years after box date. Some cigars I age longer. It takes time to develop a feel for your collection and where it is going.

I strongly disagree with the statement about the relationship between 'strength' and 'aging potential'. I have found that many cigars lighter in body need significant aging to bring out the full aromatic spectrum. Anyone smoking aged El Reys will probably attest to this. I have had Bolivars crash and burn while Trinidads or La Glorias keep humming along.

My overall point is that generalities are a bit difficult with the aging game. In my world, that is part of the enjoyment. No success without failure!!

Seems like 5 years is the consensus with the aging. This I can do. I'd love to see what a few more years on my Bolivar Gigantes will do to them. Trail and error is what it's all about I suppose. Thanks so much for taking the time! I appreciate it.

[tjhernandez34]

It is hard to not smoke them in 5 years, my previous comment was general (and that is why I said typically). For example, El Rey del Mundo Demi Tasse which are light bodied, are good up til 20 years. I do agree that it is trial and error, also it is important to note that cigars do go through sick periods, where they don't seem as good. So I agree completely with the comments above, that state if they are good smoke them. Also, aging cigars yourself is really tough, unless you're completely loaded and can buy what you smoke and buy to age as well. That's why there is a collector market for aged smokes, personally my oldest box is some Punch Churchills from June 1998, and after that maybe remnants of a five year old box or two. I would suggest if you purchase a special occassion smoke to save up and get two boxes, that way it will take a number of years to kill the first box then the second will have a chance to get older. Just try to not get married too many times, or have too many kids or you may run out sooner with this approach.

[El Presidente]

I really haven't had any cigars lose too much over a 5 year period. I do enjoy a great fresh cigar but a great young cigar will be a very good-superb cigar at 5 years in the main.

Improvement is incremental during that period (from a starting good cigar). On the other hand the improvement in a so so cigar can be exceptional over 5 years - 7 years.

The 6-10 years is an interesting period. I have found boxes I have loved to this time have lost much of what drew me to them in the first place. Then again we have Dieux which just explodes in flavour. LGC MO2 another.

I am a believer in sampling my stock regularly to ascertain its level of development. If they have reached a "Golden period" of flavour I will finish them. Have been caught out too many times assuming they will get better.

[CanuckSARTech]

I agree fully with all said so far.

Another great thing to help with different aging aspects of the different brands/marcas and their formats/vitolas is the Min Ron NEE book, the Encyclopaedia. I just finally recently got my own copy of it, after drooling after one for years, and it's got some amazing points in it for aging in the individual brands' sections, particular to each.

There's a webpage that I had found with a scan of the section on aging...

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...n-nee-part.html

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...ee-part_02.html

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...ee-part_03.html

Just click on the picture of the book's pages at the top of the screen, to see them blown up in full glory for easy reading.

Something to take with a grain of salt (aging stuff for 30 years???), but something that puts an amazing amount of detail out there.

Hope this helps.

[Habanakane21]

I really haven't had any cigars lose too much over a 5 year period. I do enjoy a great fresh cigar but a great young cigar will be a very good-superb cigar at 5 years in the main.

Improvement is incremental during that period (from a starting good cigar). On the other hand the improvement in a so so cigar can be exceptional over 5 years - 7 years.

The 6-10 years is an interesting period. I have found boxes I have loved to this time have lost much of what drew me to them in the first place. Then again we have Dieux which just explodes in flavour. LGC MO2 another.

I am a believer in sampling my stock regularly to ascertain its level of development. If they have reached a "Golden period" of flavour I will finish them. Have been caught out too many times assuming they will get better.

Thanks for your input Rob. The plan is motion!! I'll buy 2 of everything...age one box for 5 years and smoke the other. Like I tell my wife....It's a hobby and I'm a collector. I went from baseball cards as a kid, Star Wars as a young teenager and now Cigars...Now I just need to manufacture a larger cabinet!!! Glorious...

[Habanakane21]

I agree fully with all said so far.

Another great thing to help with different aging aspects of the different brands/marcas and their formats/vitolas is the Min Ron NEE book, the Encyclopaedia. I just finally recently got my own copy of it, after drooling after one for years, and it's got some amazing points in it for aging in the individual brands' sections, particular to each.

There's a webpage that I had found with a scan of the section on aging...

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...n-nee-part.html

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...ee-part_02.html

http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/2009/0...ee-part_03.html

Just click on the picture of the book's pages at the top of the screen, to see them blown up in full glory for easy reading.

Something to take with a grain of salt (aging stuff for 30 years???), but something that puts an amazing amount of detail out there.

Hope this helps.

Are you kidding me!!! this is great. I'm gonna study this for days. IF I'm spending $1ooo's of dollars on cigars every other month I need to know it all! or else it's for nothing. I want my kids to grow up with plenty of boxes in my cabinet for them to sample when they are of age. I'm trying to get 2 cigars from each of the years my 3 children were born. I recently bought 2 RYJ '98 Price of Whales. Still on the look out for 2 cigars from 2000 and 2 from 1995. I'm all about marking significant time of my life with Habanos. My childrens births, Wedding anniversay and My UW Huskies winning the Rose Bowl this year!!!! Thanks for you time, I appreciate it a bunch. Shane

[MontrealRon]

There is a basic General Principle to building up a cigar collection

that is effectively the same as for a wine celler -

purchase more than you consume.

This can be done even with a quite modest budget,

though of course the more money available, the easier it gets.

As for cigar aging, you can count on the fact that, for well stored Habanos,

four or five years aging will surely do no harm, and, in almost every case,

will improve the smoking experience.

As your tastes develop, you will be able to judge for yourself which cigars to age still further.

Many cigars also smoke well in their first few months,

then seem to shut down, entering a sort of dumb phase, that can last for a year or more.

If you don't like the way a certain cigar is smoking, don't asume that it has expired.

Put them away for a good rest, then try again. Repeat as necessary.

One thing I will say about the current fashion for young smokes -

Even if a cigar starts off great, if by the final third it begins to taste/smell of ammonia,

it is not ready.

If there is no trace of this noxious chemical,

which is released by the natural fermentation of the tobacco,

the smoking experience should be good, even if there is still room for improvement.

I fully agree with Khomeinist that the "strength" of a young cigar has no correlation

with its capacity to age gracefully.

Many cigars that are rough in their youth mellow with age,

others, like Upmanns, start off mild, almost bland, then get stronger over time,

and more complex and flavourful.

Even the very mildest smokes can improve greatly.

I have three boxes of Flor de Cano Selectos; a '97, a '98, and an '09.

While the babies are smokeable, they are simple, though decent, with great potential.

Both the aged boxes are showing way better,

with depth of flavour and aroma far beyond their juniors.

I hope I still have a few to try at 20+!

I also have some '90 ERDM Demi-Tasse that are amazingly good for such tiny smokes,

and they are nowhere near the end of their road!

[Habanakane21]

There is a basic General Principle to building up a cigar collection

that is effectively the same as for a wine celler -

purchase more than you consume.

This can be done even with a quite modest budget,

though of course the more money available, the easier it gets.

As for cigar aging, you can count on the fact that, for well stored Habanos,

four or five years aging will surely do no harm, and, in almost every case,

will improve the smoking experience.

As your tastes develop, you will be able to judge for yourself which cigars to age still further.

Many cigars also smoke well in their first few months,

then seem to shut down, entering a sort of dumb phase, that can last for a year or more.

If you don't like the way a certain cigar is smoking, don't asume that it has expired.

Put them away for a good rest, then try again. Repeat as necessary.

One thing I will say about the current fashion for young smokes -

Even if a cigar starts off great, if by the final third it begins to taste/smell of ammonia,

it is not ready.

If there is no trace of this noxious chemical,

which is released by the natural fermentation of the tobacco,

the smoking experience should be good, even if there is still room for improvement.

I fully agree with Khomeinist that the "strength" of a young cigar has no correlation

with its capacity to age gracefully.

Many cigars that are rough in their youth mellow with age,

others, like Upmanns, start off mild, almost bland, then get stronger over time,

and more complex and flavourful.

Even the very mildest smokes can improve greatly.

I have three boxes of Flor de Cano Selectos; a '97, a '98, and an '09.

While the babies are smokeable, they are simple, though decent, with great potential.

Both the aged boxes are showing way better,

with depth of flavour and aroma far beyond their juniors.

I hope I still have a few to try at 20+!

I also have some '90 ERDM Demi-Tasse that are amazingly good for such tiny smokes,

and they are nowhere near the end of their road!

Wow...amazing... things that I knew were happening but couldn't explain it. Thanks a lot for taking your time and replying back to m. Very informative.

[Michel1968]

I am a believer in sampling my stock regularly to ascertain its level of development. If they have reached a "Golden period" of flavour I will finish them. Have been caught out too many times assuming they will get better.

Amen to that, Presidente.

In my opinion ageing cigars is not that difficult. Store and forget for two decades and voila, an aged cigar... I'd rather call for something like 'maturing' cigars. Smoke them when they're ready, well matured that is.

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

Of course, one mustn't forget that if improperly cured and fermented tobacco is used in a cigar, no amount of ageing will transform the puro [sic] into a masterpiece.

[CanuckSARTech]

Are you kidding me!!! this is great. I'm gonna study this for days. IF I'm spending $1ooo's of dollars on cigars every other month I need to know it all! or else it's for nothing. I want my kids to grow up with plenty of boxes in my cabinet for them to sample when they are of age. I'm trying to get 2 cigars from each of the years my 3 children were born. I recently bought 2 RYJ '98 Price of Whales. Still on the look out for 2 cigars from 2000 and 2 from 1995. I'm all about marking significant time of my life with Habanos. My childrens births, Wedding anniversay and My UW Huskies winning the Rose Bowl this year!!!! Thanks for you time, I appreciate it a bunch. Shane

If you like what's on the pages of that book, then prepare to be amazed. Those are only 6 pages out of almost 5- or 6-hundred.

I just finally picked up a copy of this "cigar bible" a couple of weeks ago, after always drooling over one and leafing through the pages in envy every time I went to my LCDH b&m store. Well worth the purchase, even for what I got it for ($250 CDN).

Rob just put one or two up for sale - I didn't realize they still had some, or I would have scooped it up at his price ($160 USD). If you seriously want a copy, I'd jump on this, as these books have been out of print for years, and they're extremely hard-to-find collector's items.

[CanuckSARTech]

Of course, one mustn't forget that if improperly cured and fermented tobacco is used in a cigar, no amount of ageing will transform the puro [sic] into a masterpiece.

That's why a friend shouldn't allow a friend to smoke Rocky Patels!

[CanuckSARTech]

Are you kidding me!!! this is great. I'm gonna study this for days. IF I'm spending $1ooo's of dollars on cigars every other month I need to know it all! or else it's for nothing. I want my kids to grow up with plenty of boxes in my cabinet for them to sample when they are of age. I'm trying to get 2 cigars from each of the years my 3 children were born. I recently bought 2 RYJ '98 Price of Whales. Still on the look out for 2 cigars from 2000 and 2 from 1995. I'm all about marking significant time of my life with Habanos. My childrens births, Wedding anniversay and My UW Huskies winning the Rose Bowl this year!!!! Thanks for you time, I appreciate it a bunch. Shane

K, I looked for the thread where Rob had the Encyclopaedia shown for sale, and it was on the first page of the thread where you scored your RASS's...

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/inde...howtopic=102758

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/inde...st&p=182525

[fugwumpy]

My childrens births, Wedding anniversay and My UW Huskies winning the Rose Bowl this year!!!!

I think you put the "W" upside down in that sentence

Just so you know what you're getting into...

Some of the immortal words from Tampa:

If you smoke 1-2 cigars a day and a few more on weekends, and you want to smoke aged 5-8 years cigars, then you need a humidor that will hold 100-125 boxes of cigars. Then make a habit to always buy 2 boxes of every cigar and buy the replacement when the first box is half way finished. If you smoke 1 cigar a day and want variety, then you need 31 boxes of different cigars, times 3 each equals to smoke 1 box while aging 2.

There was a post of his with a little more detail, but I haven't been able to dig it up yet.

~Joe