cork or screwcap?

[khomeinist]

Check this out if you want to start going in depth....

http://www.wineanorak.com/corks/cork_index.htm

[jquest63]

Screw Cap: Ease of use, too many bad experiences with cork

[Ken Gargett]

I too see the move toward screw caps as being progress, but I still prefer the corks for aethetic purposes. There is just something about the sound of the cork being removed that makes the bottel more enjoyable. Corked wine, plugged cigars...it happens.

this concept of hearing the cork pop being integral to the enjoyment of the wine was a big barrier here for a while but really, how much does it contribute? it is all over fairly quickly. and now in nz and australia, no one thinks about it.

a lot of this is based on resistance to change, tradition and some snobbery.

as someone once said, if we want to go back to the tradition way, why not an old rag jammed in the top of a clay pot? when cork came along, everyone changed because it was better. so too, screwcaps. can anyone imagine an ancient wine retailer saying i'll never use those new fangled corks. rags and pots for me.

screwcaps are not perfect and many winemakers will concede they are waiting for the next innovation (who knows, it may involve cork?). grange is likely to skip screwcap and go to what comes next (and they have been doing grange trials for a long time). my understanding is that it is largely the accountants who have marketing concerns offshore that has prevented grange going screwcap - certainly not the winemakers.

corks are undoubtedly better than they were a decade or two ago. the portuguese have put in a lot of work, and they will concede that for too long, they denied there was a problem. it let screwcaps through the door and now they have a bigger problem.

as someone also once said (malcolm gluck from england, i believe), the correct figure of wine affected by cork is 100%, as if you put a cork in a bottle, you affect it. as for TCA, figures in aussie shows were pushing the 30% mark. a lot of this was detected by judges and would not be noticed or recognised by your average drinker. but certainly 5 to 10% was noticeable. winemakers hate this as they make the stuff, it goes out and someone tries it, hates the wine because of taint but simply blames the maker and does not buy from them again.

i've seen many thousands of dollars of wine ruined. i did a lunch a bit ago where we lost a krug 88, a clos vougeot 83 and an yquem 71. yet at the same lunch, a cork in a 31 port had been so good, the wine looked like it was 10 years old, though the wine also has to be good for that.

i've only ever tried the 78 romanee conti once (thankfully not mine) and while we could drink it, there was just a whiff of taint spoiling the experience. if you are drinking a wine around $10 to $20k a bottle, to have it stuffed by a piece of bark worth about 50c is a bit rich.

using screwcaps does require a slight modification in winemaking techniques but these guys are not idiots and they quickly work out what they need to do.

as for ageing, far more tests have been done with white than red and i can assure everyone that there is absolutely NO doubt that whites under screwcap age better than they do under cork. seen it time and time again. no reason why reds won't go the same way. and it appears that they are doing so.

there is also the major problem, espcially for whites, of random oxidation if bottled under cork.

all this stuff about needing oxygen through the cork and so on is utter bunkum.

another factor is consistency. age a case of wine for say ten or even 30 years under cork and you'll have a dozen slightly different, sometimes considerably different, wines, with some being very disappointing. under screwcap, they'll all be consistent.

the group i was with yesterday is a bunch of old mates, most of whom i've known and drunk wonderful wines with for 30 years. some of these guys are 20 to 25 years older than i am. they are pretty much the ultimate traditionalists when it comes to wine. some of them have astonishing cellars full of great Bordeaux and Burgundy and all sorts of classic wines. yet everyone of them now not only accepts the benefits of screwcap over cork, but strongly prefers it.

i sometimes think it is a bit surprising that someone looking at nz and australia from the outside doesn't twig to the fact that these are the two countries that have seen the most wines under screwcap and have had the most experience with them, from drinking and making perspectives. both places have come down very strongly on the side of screwcaps. why? it is hardly something in our dna. there were just as many opposed to screwcap here in the early days as there are in any other place. it is simply that we have had the opportunity to see what a better closure screwcap is. i am convinced that as other countries have that experience, the result will be the same.

as for yesterday and the rieslings, they all showed well. what was compelling was that the two oldest were a pikes reserve 1997 (cork) and a richmond grove 1998 (screwap). no disrespect to the richmond grove but all things equal, the pikes would certainly be considered to have the better pedigree and potential. and while both were enjoyable, the richmond grove looked about ten years or more younger than the pikes, as did all the other wines that were under screwcap. much fresher. we see it so often.

as for plastic stoppers, they are awful. they do impart a character to the wine and flatten it within a few months.

for the box suggestion, they are fine for cheaper stuff for about 6 months but after that, do go downhill and start to lose their imperviousness, hence the high levels of sulphur.

now, all we have to do now is convince people that champagne would be better served by going with a crown seal than a traditional cork.

[khomeinist]

Excellent sophistry! Love the snob straw man!

Seriously. The biochemistry is not resoved. Am I wrong Ken? And 'freshness' is not what everyone is looking for in a well-aged wine. Personally, I am not stuck on cork. I just don't think the matter has been addressed thoroughly by science. I detect a lot of anecdotal nonsense and cultural defensiveness.

[Fuzz]

Bag in box definitely is not designed for long term storage. We often have to return a lot of this stuff back to the manufacturer if it sits around for more than a few months. The bags tend to balloon and burst if they sit around in a warehouse for more than 2-3 months.

[Ken Gargett]

Excellent sophistry! Love the snob straw man!

Seriously. The biochemistry is not resoved. Am I wrong Ken? And 'freshness' is not what everyone is looking for in a well-aged wine. Personally, I am not stuck on cork. I just don't think the matter has been addressed thoroughly by science. I detect a lot of anecdotal nonesense and cultural defensiveness.

tyson stelzer from brizzy has done a lot of work with the science and published extensively. plenty of people still arguing but i think that many, probably especially those on the side of screwcaps, feel that the scientific arguments are done and dusted.

when i say fresh, i mean as in the sense of opposed to tired. for mature wins, i guess in the sense of life. for me, a tired wine is useless at any age. an older wine doesn't have to be tired, which i guess is what i was getting at.

[El Presidente]

Lots of spurious arguments in this thread.

The 'natural' and/or aesthetic arguments are not particularly interesting to me. What is of interest is the issue of biochemistry. It only takes about 15 minutes of research to realize that the biochemical issue (i.e. what happens in the bottle post-capping/corking) is FAR from resolved. This is a contentious issue. Low levels of oxygen appear to be beneficial for certain wines, and less so for some others.

I am initially inclined to agree with Guy. For wines designed to age 30+ years, I am going for a case with natural corks. If I lose a bottle (in line with industry estimates) I will be happy enough. I would hypothesize (that is all we are doing after all.... I don't think Sandholm has a laboratory in his basement) that the best individual bottles of wine sampled from competing cases of corked and capped wines will come from the corked cases. In other words, the variability might be greater in corked wines but the best wines will also come from corked cases.

Anyway. It is an easy enough experiment. You are all going to be here in 30 years for the results? 10 cases of each treatment. Different kinds of caps to be tested? Which wine should we settle on?

I jest. But to show that this is NOT resolved and will require years of further research.

Take your shots. Lol.

Side by side testing of some of our better reds under stelvin and cork haave now been going back 25 years as far as I know.

Our best reds are putting at least some of the release under Stelvin.

There is a reason.

[El Presidente]

I detect a lot of anecdotal nonsense and cultural defensiveness.

I detect a love of name calling and taking threads from discussion to a lower road. Make an end of it as of now.

[khomeinist]

Will look into the literature a bit more. I like the rebeliousness of screw caps. Really. Just not convinced that I want such caps on my most complex red wines.

Nice discussion

[khomeinist]

I detect a love of name calling and taking threads from discussion to a lower road. Make an end of it as of now.

Sorry! Wasn't serious! Just knew Ken and Sandholm were going to bring out big guns!

My tone isn't coming off correctly. I take it the gun thread was my fault? Damn. Enjoy the fishing/taxes Jefe!

Long live the banana republic!

[Ken Gargett]

Sorry! Wasn't serious! Just knew Ken and Sandholm were going to bring out big guns!

Sorry. My tone isn't coming off correctly. I take it the gun thread was my fault? Damn. Enjoy the finishing jefe!

he is just a bit sensitive because every thread he enters blows up. don't worry, he is away for the next three days so everyone can say whatever they like.

i'm away as well so have fun.

[khomeinist]

he is just a bit sensitive because every thread he enters blows up. don't worry, he is away for the next three days so everyone can say whatever they like.

i'm away as well so have fun.

Ok. Sorry anyways. I usually think 'versus' threads can take the piss a bit. Nothing ever personal. Respect and all that. Enjoy your trip as well.

[maalouly]

he is just a bit sensitive because every thread he enters blows up. don't worry, he is away for the next three days so everyone can say whatever they like.

i'm away as well so have fun.

Dont' start deleting posts Ken! Rob come backkkkkkk.

Ken perhaps you can do a review, trying the same wine (not sure if that's possible), one cork cap and the other screwcap and tell us the difference if any.

Cheers,

Elie.

[Ken Gargett]

Dont' start deleting posts Ken! Rob come backkkkkkk.

Ken perhaps you can do a review, trying the same wine (not sure if that's possible), one cork cap and the other screwcap and tell us the difference if any.

Cheers,

Elie.

done it a number of times, elie, though less so these days as most makers feel they've proved their point. screwcap usually better though not always in the early days, though if cork better it is usually line ball. as they get older, screwcap usually every time.

[JMH]

Just remembered reading a small piece in the Moss Wood may newsletter (link) and they much prefer screw cap over cork. See the last page.

[sandholm]

I am initially inclined to agree with Guy. For wines designed to age 30+ years, I am going for a case with natural corks. If I lose a bottle (in line with industry estimates) I will be happy enough. I would hypothesize (that is all we are doing after all.... I don't think Sandholm has a laboratory in his basement) that the best individual bottles of wine sampled from competing cases of corked and capped wines will come from the corked cases. In other words, the variability might be greater in corked wines but the best wines will also come from corked cases.

First, I have never ever said that I have a laboratory in the basement, and I could not care less for people who try to use that kind of rhetoric. I have nor any interest or time to discuss with people who is just fixed to defend the cork, just because its cork and we have used it for some hundreds of years. I could not care less, if people are willing to discuss pro/cons then I gladly do that. Now, just to give a small background (with is more then 1+ min on the internet), I have 20+ years of wine "experience", I am not a producer or sommelier or experienced wine taster (as Ken), what I am is an amature that loves wine, i have attended several travels, educations, and visit to differnt winary, I even try to spend 1 week every year just touring wine regions, I am also in charge of the wine tastings at our local wine club, and attended several (25+) international wine tastings, so no expert but not a beginner.

2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA) comes from the cork, nothing else, it dont add anything to the wine then just bad bad taste, and its a reaction between the wine and the cork. If you remove the cork then you remove the TCA.

I like the homepage you gave, and neither me or Ken have ever said that we never drink wine with cork. I guess that 99% of the wine I purchase is on cork. Now, what we want is more tastings and that with good wine. I have attended several wine tastings where cork/non-cork wines have been tested and so has Ken. I can ensure that my wine pallet is not as evolved as experts (or Kens), but for my point of view, there is a difference but a GOOD difference. In a bottle with no cork I get "cleaner" and more "clear" smell of the wine. With clean or clear I don't mean young, I mean that I can smell the development/age of the wine better, its like the taste and smell from a bottle using a cork is "fogged" but the non-cork wine bottle is clear. You could say the non-cork bottle has an opera singers voice, but the corked one has a voice of a cigarette smoker, harsh and dull.

If you haven't tried it, try to find 2 bottle from the same producer and year, one without cork and one with. If you go to a wine house that care he gladly tell you what he things and many many time i have had this conversation with wine producer they have quickly produced two (or more) bottles, non-corked and corked. These people love the product and the most geniun and friendly people I have ever meet is good wine makers in France.

I believe that we all are after a good product. As I said before, for me that product is what's inside the bottle, not the image or what the bottle is sealed with. I want a wine that is produced with love and passion, were I can feel that the wine producer has cared, both for the land, but also for the grapes, the production and the end product.

Unfortunate we will have to live with TCA for many more years, and personal I can live with that 10% of "cheep" wine is ruined due to a packaging issue, but I hate to smell TCA from a vintage premium bottle that I have cared and stored for many many year, and know that this wine where perfect when it was poured on the bottle, but got ruined just because there is a CHF 0,5 piece of wood in the top of the bottle.

Dont judge the non-cork before you have tried it, and tried I mean with a good vintage premium wine, I got my opinion from that, not from an image or history but from the wine tast, which for me is the most important aspect of the wine, not the CHF 0,5 piece in the top of the bottle.

cheers

[Michel1968]

for anything to be drunk within a year after bottling a screwtop will do fine, for drinking within 2 years 'plastic' cork, within 5 years short cork anything above long cork...

[khomeinist]

Sandholm....I was actually hoping that you would state that you DID have a lab in your basement. it was a joke. And your tone was far from exemplary. My apologies were to Ken (because my humor might not have translated properly over the Pacific) and Rob (because this forum is his at the end of the day). I generally like the passion you bring to your interests. We share many of them (mountaineering, photography, wine, cigars, etc). But you have had threads closed and shouldn't take the high horse.

As to experience. I too have 20 years experience. I am from a wine-growing region in California. My brother is an enologist. I have close friends in all aspects of the wine industry. I collect. I have a palate. Etc. I felt like the screw-cap argument was being unfairly aimed at a 'snob' straw man. Anyone can review the posts to determine if I am correct in this regard.

As a scientist/philosopher, I can't help myself when information is presented using strained logic without empirical data. I appreciate Ken and Sandholm discussing the issue thoroughly and perhaps we can agree that further research on the specific biochemical pathways of aging are necessary. That being said.... I am sure that some type of screw-cap is probably going to be the way to go in the future. There isn't just one type of screw-cap that can work at the end of the day.

I suspect the furor has more to do with the gun thread. As that thread no longer exists, I will not address those concerns in this wine thread....other than to offer apologies to all that didn't understand my reasoning. Private messages best for such clarification.

Peace to all.

[Colt45]

Let's keep it on topic gents.

[Habanos2000]

I like beer... in bottles, not cans because..... oh never mind.

[Ken Gargett]

My apologies were to Ken (because my humor might not have translated properly over the Pacific)

if there has been something in this thread by anyone that was acidently offensive to me or intended to be, i must say i missed it.

one of the great arguments for the screwcap side is the number of former utterly committed cork-apologists (and i mean that in the nicest way) who become zealots for stelvin/screwcap. i don't know anyone going the other way.

as an example, many might have heard of james halliday. james has written about 40 books or more and probably 1,000's of articles. he has judged all around the world and is considered one of the great authorities. i suspect he has drunk more of the world's great wines than the rest of the forum put together.

i know james well and i don't think he'd mind me saying that there was a time when he was dismissive of screwcaps. these days, hard to find a stronger advocate. this is simply because of the experience he has had with both. i firmly believe that with time and experience and objectivity, the vast majority of cork fans will become screwcap disciples.

[Ken Gargett]

2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA) comes from the cork, nothing else, it dont add anything to the wine then just bad bad taste, and its a reaction between the wine and the cork. If you remove the cork then you remove the TCA.

i hate to be seen in any way promoting the cause of cork but that bit isn't true. you do get it in lots of other things. there was a spot on the road between brizzy and the coast near some swamps that was rank with it. every time i drove past, my immediate impression was somene had opened a corked bottle.

you can get it in all sorts of places.

the absolute best was at one of the large wine australia exhibitions, it was in the airconditioning for one of the exhibition rooms. the room stank of it. what was priceless was that this was the room sponsored by the cork industry. not a good look.

nearly as good was a few years ago at the adelaide (from memory) wine show when the top red prize was given by the cork industry. it went to a wine under screwcap.

[dicko]

Very interesting thread! I've only been drinking wine since for the last 5 years and being in australia means pretty much 90%+ of stuff i drink is under screw-cap. Ive started going to some industry tastings to learn and have fun and it blows me away how many wines older wines under cork have a taint to some level! even though very biased becaused of my age and location, screw cap seems the way to go imo!

having said that, I do really enjoy the ritual of pulling the cork out of a wine for a celebration or a date or something.

my 2c

cheers,\

Dicko

[lemmycaution]

Just opened a bottle last night with the aroma of wet cardboard. I honestly haven't had this happen in a while, so no big deal. The only time it really bothers me is when it's a bottle I have been saving for a while. Anyway, I don't see any problem with screwcaps. I guess it's just personal preference.

[Ken Gargett]

Just opened a bottle last night with the aroma of wet cardboard. I honestly haven't had this happen in a while, so no big deal. The only time it really bothers me is when it's a bottle I have been saving for a while. Anyway, I don't see any problem with screwcaps. I guess it's just personal preference.

you should be able to take it back to the retailer, unless you have had it for a while. no big deal if it is a quaffer but if you've paid $50 or $100 or $1000 for it, a bigger deal. and if you are somewhere where it is the only bottle or the special bottle for a dinner...