What's The Real Difference?

[cigarros]

  CigarJoe said:

a gaggle of non-cubans.

Nice comparison!

[laficion]

  mazolaman said:

This is what the French mean by the word "terroir",the whole process and environment.They obsess about this word with wine,cheese,everything.They understand that these natural products are a sum of some unique parts,and circumstances.

There are no cigars like Cubans....

Ross, mazolaman has given you the anwser,

"C'EST LE TERROIR "

You're asking yourself, "what is the real difference ? "

Allow me to put it in another context, I know that you are a great lover of wines so,

you surly know that in the 1870's, Europe was struck by the PHYLLOXERA disease that

in less then 20 years, decimated almost all the vineyards of Europe. Thanks to the American

vine and to its resisitance to the disease, in the 1890's, American rootstocks were grafted

to every wine vine variety and saved the vines and the wine industries in Europe.

Now does that mean that all the wines in Europe taste like American wines ?

How about the grape variety, PINOT NOIR, which is the grape that makes the great Burgundy

reds in France . Pinot Noir variety is grown everywhere in the world. Does that mean that

Pinot Noir wines that are produced in the Willamette Valley in Oregon are the same as the

Pinot Noir wines of the Côte-d'or region of Burgundy, even being at the same latitude as in

Burgundy ?

NO, They are absolutely different and thank God for that. Or, we can listen to guys like Parker

and all have the same wine with the same tastes, HIS .

As for Cuban cigars it's the same, C'EST LE TERROIR, the process, the enviornment,the soil and

it's different compositions makes it unique, even if you have a cuban seed , cuban roller,

Cuban style, Cuban what you want, it will never taste the same or BE the same.

Just like a cuban will never be or taste the same as a cigar from NIC or HON or DR.

There are things that can never be duplicated because they are a unique ansemble of elements.

[cigarros]

Guy! You are right! Agree completely! Terroir - you are Frenchmen knows sense of this term ))

[Colt45]

  laficion said:

There are things that can never be duplicated because they are a unique ansemble of elements.

Simply to continue the exercise... we have two bowls of cabernet grapes, one from the Bordeaux region of France, one from the Napa region of California.

In tasting these grapes, what would we find - that they taste almost the same, are rather different, or vastly different?

(remember the Paris wine tasting of 1976 )

[semery74]

Rushed to Market Theory

Anyone love tomatoes? Take one from the grocery supermarket, it has traveled a thousand miles, was picked before it was ripe, and has arrived in satisfactory sellable condition, it is colorful but tasteless. Now take one from your backyard garden, you’ve finished growing to vine ripen perfection. You cut it, salt it, and place it in a bowl to devour. It is the richest tasting tomato you have ever savored in your entire life. How does this equate to tobacco, both in the nightshade family, it’s easy. The American market is an animal that will eat anything that is thrown at it. Tobacco from outside the Cuban market has proved itself worthy of a prize, take Padron’s for example. Is it just the capitalistic animal that kills quality?

Secret Ingredient Theory

I have been asking this question Colt has asked from the moment I stepped foot on the internet in respect to cigars. I have scoured libraries, journals, and the internet alike. Found a few promising articles and a patent that describe a process that involves Petuning with bacteria to enhance the fermentation process. I’ve posted the articles on ICC and labeled them the Serendipity Articles, they are from the late 1800s.

[laficion]

  Colt45 said:

Simply to continue the exercise... we have two bowls of cabernet grapes, one from the Bordeaux region of France, one from the Napa region of California.

In tasting these grapes, what would we find - that they taste almost the same, are rather different, or vastly different?

(remember the Paris wine tasting of 1976 )

First, I would not drink wine out of a bowl Ross

As to the two wines, vastly different, absolutely, Why?

First the soil. the earth itself, the olégo elements. the composition.

The landscape, hilly, flat, valley, the work on the vines, the care taken and the passion behind.

This is all physical and cultural tradition.

Another would be wood or stainless steel, aging or not, chemical or natural. The process.

Winds, climate, near the ocean.

They could never be the same, the only thing they have in common is the grape variety, that's

all. For a professional taster, he will have to be very knowledgeable and pay a lot of attention

to the mineralogy of the wine to tell it's origin , but the taste will be very different.

As for the Paris wine tastings, for me, they don't have much authority on the matter because

the so called pro's were all just person's convinced in their absolute and not in their tastes,

like in cigar blind tests, they will pay more attention to the shapes and the sizes they can

recognize rather then on the differenet nuance or main characteristics of a vitola or brand.

[crasmith]

Speaking of vegetables, take the Vidalia onion for example. This onion is grown in a 20 county region in south central Georgia. The mild sweetness and smooth texture is sought after everywhere by gourmets. This onion has been planted elsewhere and it is just not the same. As quoted by Jimmy, it must be the soil.

The soil is very sandy, loose and fertile and the mild weather in South Georgia also helps make the perfect climate for this delectable table fare.

I think that all of these things come into play to create the best tobacco in the world from Cuba!

[jsaunders9]

  crasmith said:

Speaking of vegetables, take the Vidalia onion for example. This onion is grown in a 20 county region in south central Georgia. The mild sweetness and smooth texture is sought after everywhere by gourmets. This onion has been planted elsewhere and it is just not the same. As quoted by Jimmy, it must be the soil.

The soil is very sandy, loose and fertile and the mild weather in South Georgia also helps make the perfect climate for this delectable table fare.

I think that all of these things come into play to create the best tobacco in the world from Cuba!

Exactly, I was going to point out that my father is a ex farmer and life long hobby gardiner here in Ontario. I have seen him plant onions from the same pack of seeds in different years and get completely different results depending on the season. One year strong, next year mild, thick skin, thin etc. So climate is the key imo.

[semery74]

Here are the articles I was referring to in my previous post. My vegetable/fruit analogy was more geared toward the agriculture process has a whole. Farmers and distributors have found that by picking tomatoes before they are ripe increases their shelf life, makes them less susceptible to damage during harvest and transport, and by treating them with ethylene gas they will ripen post harvest. The question is, are the Non-Cuban manufacturers doing the bare minimum to get their product to market? Are they cheating the soil by growing multiple times a year, over fertilizing, or harvesting prematurely? I remember Chuck told me one time that some manufacturers use coffee to darken maduro wrappers, these are the improprieties that I'm trying to convey. Soil is only one part of the cocktail of character, albeit one part of hundred steps in the process of making a cigar.

Suchsland's Patent 1892

Practical Studies in Fermentation by Emil Christian Hansen, Alexander Kenneth Miller 1896

Tobacco Leaf by J.B. Killebrew. A. M., PH. D., and Herbert Myrick, B. S. 1897

Culture of Tobacco by George Odlum, B.S. 1905

[Colt45]

  laficion said:

First, I would not drink wine out of a bowl Ross

grapes Guy, bowls of grapes!

[laficion]

  Colt45 said:

grapes Guy, bowls of grapes!

Well, If the two bowls are not the same, .......... well !!!..........Hic.......Hic ......

Sorry Ross, Anyway, for me the grapes would be different, yes

They would be, each, a unique element of their own "Terroir". They would be vastly different.

Again, sorry for anwsering a question that you didn't ask .

[Colt45]

  laficion said:

Again, sorry for anwsering a question that you didn't ask .

Sorry? You're saying sorry...... to me?

You must be drinking.....

Guy, just having a little fun

[luv2fly]

I agree with Jimmy that it is the soil but also the lat/long. I have had cigars that I was told the tobacco was cuban seed grown along the same lat. It just was not the same cuban taste. I believe that if one were to take a bunch of soil from Cuba and dump it it in Nic it would not produce the same tobacco. Cuba happens to be in a particular spot with a particular enviornment that produces a unique tobacco. Just my humble opinion. Shame it is a small island.