"Cooked tobacco " and ageing....your thoughts?

[El Presidente]

There were many accusations from mid 2003 about the Cubans altering their fermentation process to make cigars more "approachable" young.

At the time the word went out by many people around the world to purchase only cigars prior 03 as the change in the fermentation process (supposed change) had the potential to ruin the long term ageing potential of cigars.

At the time I noted a change in the flavour of many cigars but I put that down to some ordinary seasons and a lack of Ligero. Some great cigars were still being produced but some staples were a little lacklustre.

I noticed a huge change from late 2005/early 2006. The tobacco rich and sweet. Again the call went out by many who warned the Cigar loving world in 03 that the end is nigh. Changes in production/fermentation (again supposed changes) mean't the end of the ageing ability of the Habanos cigar.

Two questions for our members:

1. Can you provide some examples of 04/05 cigars that have aged gracefully?

2. Many of you have 06 production cigars. Have they evolved in flavour? Are they ageing as one would expect for a 3 year old cigar?

Back in 03 and again 06 we all said "time would tell". We are only part way through the ageing process but we can at least put together an "Update" report on how these vintages are tranforming (well or otherwise).

Look forward to your thoughts.

[Habanos2000]

Rob, et al,

Do you think that people always aged cigars historically because they were never properly fermented in the first place? As we all pretty much agree, many 08's are fantastic right out of the box. Where previously some marques were automatically placed in deep storage for 3-5 years before even approaching them.

I for one prefer cigars that are good to go right away and complement the folks at Habanos for doing a great job in improving their product. Does the 2008 crop spell the end to the need to age cigars in order to really enjoy them?

[shrink]

1. Can you provide some examples of 04/05 cigars that have aged gracefully?

2. Many of you have 06 production cigars. Have they evolved in flavour? Are they ageing as one would expect for a 3 year old cigar?

1. Offhand, I'm thinking of some '04 and '05 PSD4's that were good cigars then, and even better ones now. Fortunately, I bought enough to "tide me over" until 2008, when the D4's returned to form. I am also still enjoying some '04 Mag 46's and Hoyo Epi No. 1's that have "aged gracefully".

2. I purchased more 2006 era cigars than any single production year before or since. And I am smugly enjoying the fruits of my investment. Bolivars, Cohibas, Partagas, Diplomaticos, Juan Lopez, Montecristo... they're all good, and some are outstanding. The '06s are continuing to mature, but IMO got a "head start" because of the aged fillers. Although 2008 is shaping up to be another good year, I still regard 2006 as the benchmark.

[Smooth]

Totally agree with Shrink's #2 point above.

1. I have a box of Upmann Connie1's from early 05 and they were decent from the get go and only improving with age. Also a box of Trini Reyes from 05 that were ok then and have become pocket rockets. RG Corona Extra, pretty uninspiring when young due to muted flavours became excellent afternoon smokes with lovely soft and creamy examples plentiful. VR Unicos, fell in love with this cigar from an 05 box and only have 1-2 left, this 05 box was a cut above the recent VR Unicos IMO which have been wel down on previous glory.

On the flipside quite a few of my 05 boxes showed little promise and have been given away/smoked at BBQ's amongst mates because they lost all promise and became very ordinary. Monte 2, HDM HDP, RASS.

Also forgot a box of 04 Mag46's. They were unreal!!! And were all gone by early 2006.

2. Unfortunately I wasnt buy many smokes in 07/08 so I missed out on much of the 06 bumper crop. I only have a box of Boli PC's and RASC. Both outstanding when purchased and now almost all gone. I would say they have improved from what i remember of them in 07, but the improvement would be of a smaller percentage to that of my 05 boxes development. For example the 05 Connie1's have gone from a 85/86 to a 91/92 for me, while the RASC have gone from a 88/89 to a 90/91.

So IMO you do get improvements from ageing, but they are starting from a higher rating fresh and thus the improvements wont be as drastic as in the past it seems.

[bolivr]

1. Can you provide some examples of 04/05 cigars that have aged gracefully?

2. Many of you have 06 production cigars. Have they evolved in flavour? Are they ageing as one would expect for a 3 year old cigar?

1. '05 - Boli Bonitas, no discernible change. Loved 'em then, love them now. HdM Petit Robusto, never impressed from the start, still no improvement because the flavours are just a mash all together. Party 898 V, excellent both then and now with a subtle muting of flavour over time. Overall, '05s have proven very stable for me.

2. Recently got an 06 box of Bol Bon from Czar. Not cracked it yet but they smell great Otherwise, just the Party Aristos and they are not covering themselves in glory. They taste toasty but er, that's it. I may even rate them lower than when they were fresh.

[Jakester]

The best example I can point to right now is a box of 2005 Mag46. Bland and uninteresting for nearly two years after I first purchased them, they really seem to be coming around. At the four year mark, they are noticably more strong and flavorful, but yet silky smooth. On my palette, they're surprisingly similar to the 2003 Sir Winstons that I've smoked. It will be interesting to see where they go from here.

On another note, the 2006 RASCC and Party Conn #'s 1 & 2 were very good from the get-go, and are doing extremely well as of today. As an experiment, I re-packaged 30 of the 2006 RASSC in a cab and sealed the box with plastic food wrap. I'll look forward to sampling them in 2011, and comparing them to an un-opened "control" box left in the original "dress box" packaging.

Cheers!

[Tampa1257]

Oh yes, the threads of doom and gloom that was the talk all over the cigar world, especially comming from the HK collector crowd.

From 2004, the PLPC's are absolutely fantastic and I wish I had several Cabs of the rigth now! They get better each and every day! 2005 Partagas 898V have developed a rich sweet earthy essence that IMHO clearly shows aging has increased their flavor and smokability for my palate. 2006 VR Unicos have reached a rich mocha, chocolatey flavor that they only hinted of in early 06. I recently cracked open a box of 06 Partagas Coronas and was so nicely surprised with the flavor for a 3 year old cigar that I had to hide them to keep my hands off of them.

So sum it up, if HSA was using heaters to warm up the fermentation curing barns, or they changed they way they were fermentation process, or they were cooking the tobacco or whatever else they evil doers were preaching to the cigar community back then, it is now my humble opinion after taking the time to smoke, age and sample many different brands and sizes that those that were preaching that the Habanos would have no aging potiential were wrong.

[sounddust]

I do not have the vast smoking experience to discern whether pre-03 cigars have better aging potential than the latest production, but I can say with confidence that my '05 and later boxes are developing well, with plenty of flavors left. If these are the smoking experiences that artificially accelerating the aging process provides, so bloody be it(not that I believe any of that). My experience with collectors in HK and the region tells me that these connoisseurs are still buying regularly by the dozen. The only time I hear of them looking for an early box is because of certain production quirks that may have tickled their fancy(early Trinidads when they were made in El Laguito etc.).

[jquest63]

First time i've heard of this. I will review my reserves.

[Colt45]

A few I've smoked recently come to mind:

'05 Upmann Mag 46 - these took over three years to come around, but come around they have.

'05 Montecristo No.2 - not a bad or terribly bland cigar early, but a recent sample really took me by surprise with how nicely it improved.

'06 Punch RS11 - showed promise early, but a recent sample showed great improvement in overall flavor.

[shortsqueeze]

Oh yes, the threads of doom and gloom that was the talk all over the cigar world, especially comming from the HK collector crowd.

From 2004, the PLPC's are absolutely fantastic and I wish I had several Cabs of the rigth now! They get better each and every day! 2005 Partagas 898V have developed a rich sweet earthy essence that IMHO clearly shows aging has increased their flavor and smokability for my palate. 2006 VR Unicos have reached a rich mocha, chocolatey flavor that they only hinted of in early 06. I recently cracked open a box of 06 Partagas Coronas and was so nicely surprised with the flavor for a 3 year old cigar that I had to hide them to keep my hands off of them.

So sum it up, if HSA was using heaters to warm up the fermentation curing barns, or they changed they way they were fermentation process, or they were cooking the tobacco or whatever else they evil doers were preaching to the cigar community back then, it is now my humble opinion after taking the time to smoke, age and sample many different brands and sizes that those that were preaching that the Habanos would have no aging potiential were wrong.

Right or wrong about this call or that call, I think it's undeniable the overall contribution the "HK Collector Crowd" has made to the cigar community.

[Jimmy2]

As a cigar smoker which I have been for over 20+ years I must say Habano SA has done great things in the last 3 years.Making a cigar smokable younger which is the way cigars are ment to be smoke and always have been.If anything they have been doing things wrong for years and now have gotten back on track.

HK Collectors ? 20+ years smoking who are these people never heard of them someone explain what have they done ?

[sounddust]

HK Collectors ? 20+ years smoking who are these people never heard of them someone explain what have they done ?

Just your usual fanboys, absolutely nothing to worry about, I assure you.

[Jimmy2]

Oh Cult leaders ? The blind lead the blind ?

[sinnyc]

Prez, I thought I'd give a bit of info from a different perspective.

There are many pipe tobaccos that are stoved (cooked) and even pressure treated(!) in order to achieve a certain taste profile and from everything I've read (and sampled), these tobaccos continue to age well. So if that's what happened with the cigars in the time period you mention, it's possible that all is not lost and those cigars may continue to improve.

Please understand that I am not suggesting that the Cigars in question are using stoved/cooked/artificially aged tobacco and I certainly wouldn't condone the practice if that turns out to be the case. In fact, I'd be rather upset. I just thought I'd mention that tobacco treated in such a manner does continue to mature with age although I would posit that it is not at all in the same manner as similar untreated tobacco.

- Tim

[purosdave]

I would completely agree with the 05 Mag46. I bought a 3x5 pack and nearly tossed them they were so disappointing, now they are a stunning example of how great Upmann cigars are.

The other cigar that has impressed me is the 06 Partagas Coronas. They were so in your face just 18 months ago and now have developed a familiar Partagas spice with a hint of sweetness and wonderful aroma.

[bassman]

I can't speak of the aging process of 04 & 05 cigars because most of those I bought were disappointingly bland across the board. I traded or gifted the vast majority. Bolivars & Montecristos were especially disappointing. Notable exceptions for me are 04 & 05 PLPCs & my favorite cigar of the period- 05 RA Eminencias. I've HEARD many say 05 RAGs are also outstanding, but sadly have never smoked one.

[Tampa1257]

Right or wrong about this call or that call, I think it's undeniable the overall contribution the "HK Collector Crowd" has made to the cigar community.

Josh, I agree that the "HK collector crowd" has prompted many to age their cigars. What one could argue is that on this subject, the short term aging of the 04 and 05 and the early 06 production has shown increased development in the early aging of the cigars. Long term aging is still to be seen, but the indicators are IMHO favorable. My comment was not directed toward any one individual (whom is well spoken and a spokesman for many of the HK Collectors Crowd); rather, as a group which during the 04 period were speaking of their concern, which affected the buying decisions of many around the cigar world. I believe their concerns were unfounded now and my sampling of the cigars from the period are what I base my opinion on. It made for a lot of interesting reading then and will continue in the future. Let's have this discussion again in 10 years, hopefully, I'll still have some samples to test for the long term aging.

[Jimmy2]

bassman i agree 04 & 05 were pretty bad years to many cigars very bland tasting tobacco ( no age would help !!) but their were some winners to .

But i will say the PLPC 04/05 were excellant than and i believe they changed the blend alittle because they dont taste the same as they did years ago.I am sure some will agree that have smoke many like me over the years can taste the differance in flavor.I dont buy them no more because they dont taste like the old PLPC that i once knew not that their bad their just not my cup of tea.

One reason i have stated is becasue of all the PL RR being produced since 06 alot of the tobacco that went t the PLPC were now going to the PL RR which have the PL trademark flavor.

[Van55]

I was in fairly regular phone and PM contact with Min Ron NEE during late 2003 through early 2006. He was, I think, the principal proponent of the "cooked tobacco" theory back then, and he claimed that the cooked tobacco practice affected Cuban cigars beginning in about September of 2003 and ending in about February of 2005, as best as I can recall. I was never completely clear on what he meant by "cooked tobacco" and whether it was something done in the curing barns or the fermenation process or otherwise.

I mostly avoided buying cigars dated in the alleged "cooked tobacco era." I did buy a cab of PLPC dated March 2004, and, while these cigars smoked very well within months of that date, they have come around to be nearly as good as I remember the pre-2002 ones being.

[El Presidente]

I know many of the HK Collectors and they have been instrumental in pushing the bounds of knowledge of Habanos. Not all agreed witht the proposition being put forward and many have purchased stock post 03 in volume.

I think the concerns raised in 03 were relevant. The purpose of this thread is to start to build a body of evidence to see if they were correct.

[greenpimp]

I remember being mocked years ago when I said that I thought it was silly that something had to be wrong because a cigar tasted good already.

My personal belief is that many people cut their teeth during the boom years (obviously, there had to be a great number, it was the boom.) Those people are used to a cigar tasting bad/not ready because they weren't ready, as the cigars rolled out during that period were not even aged/fermented long enough at times. A good young cigar was an oymoron to many people, which it is not now.

I also believe that the general tobacco breed changed as well, no? I seem to remember reading that the 5 year window was up on the old tobacco strain and we started seeing the new one in 2003, which accounts for some of the change in profile as well.

Also, from what I have read the heating in the barns was neither something new nor cooking, rather they could finally afford it and it kept the temperature constant for more consistent fermentation through the cold weather.

Now I really started buying cuban cigars by the box consistently in late 2002. I purchased a good deal of boxes pre 2003 box code, and noticed a marked quality change for the better post 2002. My early 2003 PSD4s, Bolivar CGs, Cohiba Robustos, MC #2 and 4, to name a few I smoked then, were all very good to excellent. I have very few sticks left from all those boxes. The ones I have remaining (Boli CG's and RASS, SigloII's, off the top of my head) continue to improve as I sample one every 6 months or so.

2004 I found some real winners and some real losers. Inconsistent, but better than pre-2003 overall for me. I had the best Bolivar BF's I've ever smoked (super powerful, earthy, light wrappers---I smoked one at 5 years on my birthday from an unopened box last week and it still kicked my butt.) Bolivar CE's were weak and lamentable, Monte2's bland. Upmann #2s and Mag46s though, went through 2 boxes of each. Very rich and satisfying. My main complaint is that there was an inconsistency of strength. Those that did not suffer from it aged and are aging well.

2005 Showed more strength across the board, IME. Hoyo Epi1s were outstanding and keep getting better. Monte4's were quite good, as were ALL the SCDLH I tried, which included every vitola. The El Morros I have from that era are true, better make sure ya ate somethin big ass-kickers. Only improving. Powerful, molasses, earthy, floral smokes. La Punta too. Oh and Upmann Conn#1 from them tasty firecrackers too. But Benchmarks like the Epi2 and PSD4, again bland and uninteresting, and have frankly not show any improvement. Can't fix weak, I guess.

2006, I agree with Bob, was and is a benchmark. Strong and flavorful and complex already and they keep getting better as I smoke them, though I am trying to save some dammit!. I have purchased a lot of cigars over the past 6 or 7 years, but really hit 2006 hard. The few things that didn't smoke well out of the box (SigloIV, RS#11) were strong and tannic and really lead me to believe that they have the guts to flesh out in the years to come.

2007 and 2008, really, are too soon for me to tell in a way. I have purchased and smoked many. The cigars in 2007 I find stronger, even more than most of the 2006 crop. I have Monte 1s and Trinidad Coloniales, for example, that are still too strong, really (the Trinidads MOCH too strong.) But will be great when the edges round out.

2008 for me tastes like a different tobacco strain again. It looks different, too. Different shades than I have been seeing for awhile An almost light orange hue, often. But REALLY tasty and quite ready to smoke. The Mag50 encapsulates the different tobacco for me. Very good, strong, different profile. It hits different notes. Upmanns across the board I have found to be wonderful, as well as the Montecristo line. And I see no reason why they will not age well. They are strong enough and have good flavors in them already. Which are the only two components that I, personally, use on a cigar to deem it ageworthy or not.

[El Presidente]

Great post Matt.

The average lifecycle of a tobacco strain is 7 years. They have 3-4 strains going at the same time all at differing points of the lifecycle. Add seasonal changes, technology changes (barn dryers/ Moisturising chambers) and you have a year to year difference.

It was a tough wrapper year in 08. A significant portion of the wrapper crop (new strain) looked wonderful and yielded plentiful oily wrappers. Unfortunately when it came to fermentation.....they disintegrated.

This raises the point that different strains need to fermented differently. The process is not an exact science and their is some trial and error involved.

[CigarZen]

A significant portion of the wrapper crop (new strain) looked wonderful and yielded plentiful oily wrappers. Unfortunately when it came to fermentation.....they disintegrated.

This raises the point that different strains need to fermented differently. The process is not an exact science and their is some trial and error involved.

Are they going to attempt a different fermentation or is the strain going to be chucked? What was the strain again, the one with larger leaves and higher yield?

[greenpimp]

Are they going to attempt a different fermentation or is the strain going to be chucked? What was the strain again, the one with larger leaves and higher yield?

Capero No.1, I believe. I seem to recall reading Robaina hated it.