flavours in cigars

[Ken Gargett]

part one - (rob's machine not big enough for all my rambling)

Recently, our esteemed guru dobbed me in to try and give some thoughts on ‘flavours’ in cigars, (see post – ‘who can taste chocolate?’) after one of our lot wondered whether he or I was a moron (hopefully neither of us) because rather than taste some of the flavours described in reviews on the forum – from myself and presumably others – he declared that he tasted nothing but tobacco. I am certainly not a scientist and my thoughts are largely transposed from my wine experiences, but I believe that there are obvious similarities, so here goes.

I guess the first point to make is that we are all heading down the wrong track in discussing taste. From my readings, our taste is limited to five different elements – sweet, sour, salty, bitter and umami. For those not familiar with umami, it was first identified in 1907 in Japan. It was largely dismissed by the West until around 2000 (which is why most of us never heard about it at school) but now seems widely accepted. It is effectively glutamate (think MSG, thick broth, old cheese, mushrooms, seaweed and especially fish sauce tho the saltiness there can hide it; it is also in tomatoes tho again can be hard to detect). Check out www.glutamate.org/media/glutamate.htm if you want to follow this a bit more. However, it would seem largely irrelevant to us re cigars.

A while back we touched on receptor taste buds and how some people make better tasters simply because they have been blessed with high number of tastebuds. This is key to individual perceptions – no two people are identical so I may have a greater ability to detect sweetness than the bloke next to me while he may be better at picking up bitterness than the next bloke and so on. This is often genetic (and in case there are any pregnant women out there, apparently perceptions change, and are often greatly heightened, during this time). It is one of the main reasons that we have different reactions to different things, eg cigars. Hence, we don’t all prefer exactly the same cigar. One wine scribe once likened the fact that we don't all like the same wine to the fact that we don’t all identify the same woman as the most beautiful in the world, adding ‘wouldn’t she be tired’.

So in reality, when we say taste, what we are mostly, but not completely, saying is what we smell. Flavour is a combination of taste and aroma and to an extent, the tactile/textural component as well.

But that is only the start.

What we smell is much more complex than what we taste. Apparently, we can pick up around 10,000 different aromas. Wine, there is still much work being done on this, has hundreds of compounds (some say thousands) and these work individually and in combination. It is simply inevitable that some of these compounds will resemble other characters/flavours/aromas etc. I can line up a series of viogniers for you and I have absolutely no doubt that your reaction would be that you are smelling/tasting apricots – despite there being no apricots involved at all. the compounds give a very strong and dominant apricot flavour to the wine. There are a squillion examples. Clare Valley riesling often has a zesty lime character. Think of the blackcurrant flavours of cabernet, tho obviously there are many other flavours as well. One English critic sent Burgundians into a spin when he claimed that ‘good Burgundy smells like shit’. He meant it in a positive way (rural, earthy, farmyard etc etc, though did delete that line in the second edition of his book). In fact, just about the only grape that, when made into wine, actually smells/tastes like grapes is muscat. Hence, it makes sense to me that the same should happen with cigars/tobacco. When transformed into cigars, the combination of compounds therein gives off different flavours. Don’t forget that there is a human component in the production of both, including fermentation, which will alter the original flavour. Otherwise, wine would taste like grapes and cigars like tobacco leaves and nothing more.

Making it all the more difficult is that there is no doubt that aromas are inextricably linked with one’s individual experiences and emotions, not unlike music. So if I had a Partagas Lusi last night, as I did, while the Lions thrashed the hapless Bombers and Jonathan Brown proved himself the best player in the game, then I am likely to think favourably on Lusi’s – even tho I do believe it was a fabulous cigar without the bonus of the game – and quite possibly when I next return to it, it will immediately stir pleasant feelings or at least, positive anticipation. The reverse might happen if I was smoking something else while watching the Poms win the Ashes (God forbid that should ever happen). I probably could never touch that particular cigar again, which would be rather unfair to it. (cont'd)

[Ken Gargett]

(part two - this really is almost all)

Obviously, the gentleman from Pillow PA, who set this in motion, is technically correct when he says he is tasting tobacco but I would suggest, if you wish to get the most from your cigars (I don’t know about you guys but the cost of the things is such that I certainly want the most from them), you need to go on from there and look for more.

Obviously, tobacco varies in taste; otherwise, there would be just one cigar for all. A start is that some is mild, some earthy, some powerful - and immediately we are in the realm of flavours and heading to more than just that it tastes like tobacco.

If anyone can get hold of the wine wheel developed in California, it is not a bad start. Try www.wineserver.ucdavis.edu/Acnoble/waw.html if you don’t have one. Although specifically for wine, i see no reason why we cannot adapt the concept to help us with identifying and describing flavours.

Its great use is in helping to identify the flavours you are enjoying in a wine but no reason that your own personal version can’t be used for cigars. The concept is that you start in the centre (it is a wheel), so with a white wine, your immediate reaction might be that it is fruity (I am assuming that you are not using this in the ‘sweet and suitable for doddery old dears’ manner but genuinely fruity – you’d be horrified at the number of people who when they taste sweetness have the reaction that the wine is ‘fruity’). Fruity is one of the major sectors - others include spicy, earthy, woody, nutty etc. Once we have selected from them, one then moves out where the choices become ever-widening forcing you to be more specific. Lots of people say they cannot go further. To begin, it is difficult for everyone and only practice will change this. So the next step, as you move out, is what sort of fruit. Is it stonefruit or dried fruit or tropical or citrus or berries? Once you have decided on that (and these things are not mutually exclusive – complexity is desirable and it is achieved in part by as many flavours as possible – no reason a wine could not exhibit some citrus and also some tropical notes, and possibly a lot more), and for example, let us assume you think it is citrus-like, then what sort of citrus is the next decision. Is it like orange peel rind (possibly a Sauternes style) or is it lemony (possibly young Hunter semillon) or is it limey (as mentioned, Clare riesling). None of these are absolutely definitive, as boundaries are often blurred – and many wines share characters, so just because you detect lime flavours doesn’t automatically make it Clare citrus – but this concept helps one move from a position of ‘just that it tastes like wine or is fruity’ and even more importantly, helps us provide descriptors.

This leads to the ability of some smokers to determine what a ‘blind’ cigar is (as per Rob’s generous little game, for want of a better term – see posting ‘April 05 Cigar Review Results’), because they recognise the flavours. It also allows us to determine if a cigar is smoking as one would expect and perhaps most importantly, it simply allows each of us to identify, and therefore regularly buy, the cigars we prefer.

There is much more obviously – structure, for example. That is vital for both wine and cigars but not strictly relevant to the flavour debate.

It is possible to take this even further and put aside personal preferences and look at objective quality, tho this is difficult and probably not necessary unless you have some professional association or reason to do so. It is, however, what anyone in the wine game needs to do (eg, if I am looking at sauv blancs, I have to try and put aside my view that it is a toxic weed, the best of which would kill a brown snake, that it is not worthy of bottling and that any sauv blanc vineyard would be better served as a carpark and look to see if the wine in the glass is a good example of what it purports to be: ie, a good sauv blanc, whether or not it I like it).

Where this is most likely to be reflected on the forum is in the scores we give in our reviews. That begs the question – should we rate the cigars objectively or subjectively? Given that this is for our own enjoyment and education rather than a purely professional site (no offence intended, Guru), my view is to do it subjectively, and I’m quite sure that is what the vast majority of the forum has been doing. It does mean that scores may be slightly different from if we did it objectively. (a tiny bit to go)

[Ken Gargett]

(this really is it - blame rob's machine for not letting it all go in at once)

If you think along the lines of the wine wheel (whether it be for wine or for cigars – and as far as I know, no one has ever developed one for cigars other than in their own mind – what a good project for our Guru in some of his endless spare time, these days used only to count his money), it will greatly assist in what many of us find tough – linking smells and tastes to language.

For me, this long, involved, rambling, attempted explanation of the concept of flavours is why when I pick up a cigar, I find tastes/smells other than just tobacco and is certainly one of the reasons I think these things are so fascinating and enjoyable.

I would be interested to know if forum members agree or disagree or have completely different ideas.

[ALB]

Bloody hell!

That certainly is a detailed explanation you got there.

We are very fortunate to have your expertise on this site to hopefully help us newbies get the most out of our stogies.

Might take a while to digest these though, but a good reference for when needed.

Nice One!

Al

[shrink]

Ken -

This was a very thoughtful discussion of a topic on which there is endless subjective discussion, but little science, and even less fact. It is often fascinating to read various reviews of specific cigars (even from the same vintage), wherein one smoker perceives chocolate, and another tastes coffee. A good friend of mine, with whom I often share favorite cubans, seems completely unable to detect the tangy citrus notes that I love so much. In even the most "twangy" smokes, he almost always picks up mildly bitter nutty flavors, like walnuts. Obviously, in this case, beauty is in the mouth of the beholder! It is worth noting that, notwithstanding these differences, he and I usually agree on which cigars are "good"!

The food industry devotes millions of dollars to the science of flavor discrimination and synthesis. The can reliably create essences of orange, lemon, grapefruit, or any citrus, not to mention berry, apple, watermelon, etc. And despite the human differences in taste buds and subjective perceptions, most people seem to be able to consistently identify them. Food science sells!

Do your know if any of this science has been applied to the issue of identifying flavors in wine, or for that matter, cigars?

[kab55]

Thanks, that was some great detailed explanation

[Ken Gargett]

The food industry devotes millions of dollars to the science of flavor

» discrimination and synthesis. The can reliably create essences of orange,

» lemon, grapefruit, or any citrus, not to mention berry, apple, watermelon,

» etc. And despite the human differences in taste buds and subjective

» perceptions, most people seem to be able to consistently identify them.

» Food science sells!

»

» Do your know if any of this science has been applied to the issue of

» identifying flavors in wine, or for that matter, cigars?

certainly not to my knowledge re cigars and while i suspect that some of the bigger players or research institutes are playing with this, i couldn't be more specific. a good source of info re taste is in max lake's books. if you are not familiar with him, he is a dr who set up lake's folly in the hunter valley - australia's forst boutique winery. he has written extensively on this and is considered an international authority but his books can be hard to find. try second hand stores and sites or the winery itself. even tho he has sold out, they may have old stocks.

[1f1fan]

Very informative posts Ken.

I find it easy to taste different flavors in cigars, but putting those tastes into words is difficult sometimes. Basic tastes such as spicy, earthy, woody, nutty are somewhat easy....but now I'd like to drill down further and identify what type of nutty, sweet, spicy, earthy tastes are present.

I have always felt that sense of smell is a very important aspect of taste....for those that "exhale" (for the lack of a better term) smoke through their nose will notice the increase of flavors present in a cigar when using this method. Let some smoke out of your mouth first and then your nose....just ignore the burning sensation if you have not tried this before...it goes away :-D

[mr.harten]

Going through the archives and stumbled across this gem. Great post Ken!

[The Privateer]

» Going through the archives and stumbled across this gem. Great post Ken!

Nice post, Ken. And thanks mr.harten for topping a great thread!