Cigars and mold

[Fuzz]

» Bloom developed in all of those boxes. So I replicated the experiment

» (albeit more voilently in regards to temp change) and voila....it happened

» again.

»

» I just wanted to see if Temp changes had anything to do with the formation

» of bloom. I was never comfortable with the Aged Cigar/Bloom theory because

» I was finding it occasionally on young stock when it arrived from PCCHK.

Is it possible that the rapid change in temp and humidity causes the wrapper to "sweat" or condensation to build up on the surface, drawing out the oils? Then when the moisture evaporates it leaves the oils to crystalise?

[Mel]

Well Screw me! Does mold look anything like that white stuff on the cigars at the bottom of this page?? Hey Rob is that tubo there been a little wet? Ha Ha.:-D

[Colt45]

We had a discussion on bloom not too long ago. In a nutshell, I've always personally

felt that I'd rather have the oils in the cigar instead of crystallized on the surface.

At best it is simply a natural occurrence. At worst, as Rob's little experiment shows,

it can be the result of drastic, abrupt changes in climate.

And while I don't think bloom is bad, all else being equal, if given the choice between

a box of cigars covered in bloom and one not, I'll take the box without.

[tapewormboy]

» We had a discussion on bloom not too long ago. In a nutshell, I've always

» personally

» felt that I'd rather have the oils in the cigar instead of crystallized on

» the surface.

» At best it is simply a natural occurrence. At worst, as Rob's little

» experiment shows,

» it can be the result of drastic, abrupt changes in climate.

» And while I don't think bloom is bad, all else being equal, if given the

» choice between

» a box of cigars covered in bloom and one not, I'll take the box without.

I had the same response as yours on the ICC forum to WayneN stating that fluctuations in the environment caused "bloom." I stated that it didn't seem to make sense that it would be good for the oils to have left the leaf itself (since it would be loss of flavor compounds)...and could possibly be used as an indicator of past storage changes.

[Well Armed]

I thought it was ploom or plume, not bloom.

[Fuzz]

» I thought it was ploom or plume, not bloom.

Whether it is plume, blume, ploom, bloom, or stripper glitter, as long as it ain't mold I say smoke it!:-P

[Ginseng]

» » A test to differentiate mold and crystallized oils would be to move the

» growth to a nutrient-rich agarose plate. If it continues to grow, you can

» be sure that it's mold. True bloom (crystallized oils) would not continue

» to grow as the source of the wrapper oils is gone.

»

» Nothing better than a generous dose of science to annihilate

» speculation and/or superstition!

»

» I would love to know Wilkey's hypothesis on the mechanisms responsible for

» bloom formation (a suitable set of journal references would suffice)...

»

You're exactly right. Experimentation is warranted.

I used to have access to a scanning electron microscope so I could have sputtered some samples and taken some photos to settle the question.

Perhaps we could cajole a microbiologist among to culture some specimens.

I am looking for more references, but unfortunately most folks find that kind of info rather tedious. :-P I'll present the hypothesis once I flesh out the mechanism a bit more.

Wilkey

[tapewormboy]

» » » A test to differentiate mold and crystallized oils would be to move

» the

» » growth to a nutrient-rich agarose plate. If it continues to grow, you

» can

» » be sure that it's mold. True bloom (crystallized oils) would not

» continue

» » to grow as the source of the wrapper oils is gone.

» »

» » Nothing better than a generous dose of science to annihilate

» » speculation and/or superstition!

» »

» » I would love to know Wilkey's hypothesis on the mechanisms responsible

» for

» » bloom formation (a suitable set of journal references would suffice)...

» »

»

» You're exactly right. Experimentation is warranted.

»

» I used to have access to a scanning electron microscope so I could have

» sputtered some samples and taken some photos to settle the question.

»

» Perhaps we could cajole a microbiologist among to culture some specimens.

»

» I am looking for more references, but unfortunately most folks find that

» kind of info rather tedious. :-P I'll present the hypothesis once I flesh

» out the mechanism a bit more.

»

» Wilkey

I can do the culture. I have a few sticks with different styles of mold but none with crystallized plume. I'll try and make the agar plates next week and do a small pilot experiment to see if this will actually work. If it does, we could have people send in cigars for testing.

This experiment is something I've been thinking about doing for a quite a number of months now.

[Ginseng]

» I can do the culture. I have a few sticks with different styles of mold

» but none with crystallized plume. I'll try and make the agar plates

» next week and do a small pilot experiment to see if this will actually

» work. If it does, we could have people send in cigars for testing.

»

»

» This experiment is something I've been thinking about doing for a quite a

» number of months now.

Very cool! I look forward to hearing how this all turns out.

Wilkey

[Professor Twain]

» I can do the culture. I have a few sticks with different styles of mold

» but none with crystallized plume. I'll try and make the agar plates

» next week and do a small pilot experiment to see if this will actually

» work. If it does, we could have people send in cigars for testing.

»

»

» This experiment is something I've been thinking about doing for a quite a

» number of months now.

Who would have guessed that "Tapewormboy" is secretly a mad scientist. Are you a parasitologist?

[tapewormboy]

» » I can do the culture. I have a few sticks with different styles of mold

» » but none with crystallized plume. I'll try and make the agar plates

» » next week and do a small pilot experiment to see if this will actually

» » work. If it does, we could have people send in cigars for testing.

» »

» »

» » This experiment is something I've been thinking about doing for a quite

» a

» » number of months now.

»

» Who would have guessed that "Tapewormboy" is secretly a mad scientist.

» Are you a parasitologist?

Haha! :-D

No not a parasitologist, but I have experience in cell culture.

[BigSlick]

Frank is good peeps. Look forward to seeing the results. TD

[Cam]

but i have about 12 boxes in my collectors humidor, 4 of the coronas of bolivar and 6 varied davidoff boxes, 3 out of 4 of the boxes of bolivar are affected and none of the davidoff?

never seen this before conditions are perfect, maybe its just bolivaR?

[tapewormboy]

» but i have about 12 boxes in my collectors humidor, 4 of the coronas of

» bolivar and 6 varied davidoff boxes, 3 out of 4 of the boxes of bolivar

» are affected and none of the davidoff?

»

» never seen this before conditions are perfect, maybe its just bolivaR?

Tons of variables in this situation, but I would think that the wrapper differences beween the two would play a huge part even if the environments were the same for both.

Just off the top of my head; leaf handling before and during rolling, strain of tobacco used, priming of leaf, oiliness, etc. Maybe some types of leaves will rarely develop plume regardless of conditions, and other will develop it much more easily no matter the conditions.

There might be some effect from the type of box that it's stored in as well, but that's just an idea. Perhaps someone with more experience of seeing many many boxes could say that SLBs have more plume versus dress boxes or something along those lines. Rob? :-)

[Cam]

out of my frustration ive decided to throw 3 boxes away, the ones badly moldy, and ive seperated the rest in one of my three other humis, it seems the czars cigars a moldified

[COJ]

» Cam, bloom / plume is crystalline - like fine sugar, salt, or tartrites.

» Mold is webby / cottony, can be gray/white, blue/green.

And because its crystalline...it will sparkle in bright light.

[Ginseng]

» » Cam, bloom / plume is crystalline - like fine sugar, salt, or

» tartrites.

» » Mold is webby / cottony, can be gray/white, blue/green.

»

» And because its crystalline...it will sparkle in bright light.

You can also do the dark room test. Take your cigar into a dark room, not just darkened. Hold it at arm's length and then shine a flashlight on it. Bloom will give you a twinkling stars effect.

Wilkey

[Tampa1257]

Yet Plume / Bloom does NOT affect the taste of a cigar. It is only a condition of the storage. Now some will argue that if a cigar is properly stored over time that the cigar will have better flavor, and while under good storage conditions, the oils form the crystals that are called plume / bloom. It is the humidor time and age that effect the taste, not the sight or formation of the crystals of the oil that make the difference in flavor. In my humble opinion anyway.

Tampa

[Ginseng]

» Yet Plume / Bloom does NOT affect the taste of a cigar. It is only a

» condition of the storage. Now some will argue that if a cigar is properly

» stored over time that the cigar will have better flavor, and while under

» good storage conditions, the oils form the crystals that are called plume

» / bloom. It is the humidor time and age that effect the taste, not the

» sight or formation of the crystals of the oil that make the difference in

» flavor. In my humble opinion anyway.

»

» Tampa

I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste of a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that exhibits no bloom).

Wilkey

[Cam]

»

» I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste of

» a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom

» indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that

» exhibits no bloom).

»

» Wilkey

My thoughts exactly Wilkey, It would be interesting for everyone to post photos of their best cigars, and moldy ones to compare, although there are many sites with such comparisons it would be interesting for a Czar documentation on here.

Cam -

[Colt45]

»

» I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste of

» a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom

» indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that

» exhibits no bloom).

»

» Wilkey

My interpretation is that many feel bloom/plume equates to quintessentially kept

cigars. I don't buy into it.

[Ginseng]

» »

» » I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste

» of

» » a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom

» » indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that

» » exhibits no bloom).

» »

» » Wilkey

» My interpretation is that many feel bloom/plume equates to

» quintessentially kept

» cigars. I don't buy into it.

Right,

Let's pull all these folktales together now in a statement of the hypothesis:

"Storage of cigars under optimum conditions promotes the development of bloom and furthermore, the presence of bloom on a properly stored cigar indicates that it possesses exceptional quantities of flavor compounds which manifest as bloom."

Contrast this with a somewhat more skeptical hypothesis as suggested by Rob's experience:

"Fluctuating storage conditions force the exudation of certain compounds from within the tobacco leaf and their subsequent recrystallization on the surface."

Wilkey

[Tampa1257]

Lore is that Bloom is a good sign for cigar taste.

I was responding to this post. Perhaps Professor Twain can expand upon the "Lore" statement.

Tampa

[Professor Twain]

»

» I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste of

» a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom

» indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that

» exhibits no bloom).

»

» Wilkey

These two statements mean virtually the same thing. One states that the bloom is a cause of exceptional flavor, the other says that it is a sign of exceptional flavor. Since we don't have any consensus or evidence that bloom is even associated with good flavor, it seems silly to quibble about whether bloom is a cause or a sign.

[Ginseng]

» » I'm not sure I've heard of anyone claiming that bloom affects the taste of

» » a cigar. The common wondering is whether or not the presence of bloom

» » indicates a cigar of exceptional flavor (over an identical item that

» » exhibits no bloom).

» »

» » Wilkey

»

» These two statements mean virtually the same thing. One states that the

» bloom is a cause of exceptional flavor, the other says that it is a sign

» of exceptional flavor. Since we don't have any consensus or evidence that

» bloom is even associated with good flavor, it seems silly to quibble about

» whether bloom is a cause or a sign.

I disagree. And what's silly about quibbling? :-P We are discussing our experiences and ideas after all and about a hobby which has a strong subjective dimension. Small wonderings are the first step to uncovering greater truths. To that end, I choose to enrich and extend the dialog rather than stifle it.

The question I've posed here is whether bloom is a causal factor in a cigar's flavor. The folklore hypothesis isn't mine. It's merely my attempt at refining and restating what seems to be held implicitly by some smokers. Making this explicit is the first step in facilitating an examination of that notion for validity.

In the case that bloom is not a cause of enhanced flavor but merely a visible indication of a cigar's potential, this would suggest that the presence of bloom might be considered a selection criteria when purchasing (vintage) cigars. Bloom, in this case, would also be a signal of a potentially superior smoking experience but does not contribute to it.

However, it is also possible to conceive of the presence of bloom as a causal factor affecting the aroma and taste of cigars. Glyceric, malic, and other organic acids are not just components of tobacco, but of fruit, wine, and other edibles. Admittedly it might be a stretch but having these compounds on the surface of the cigar where they can be heated and volatized in the immediate vicinity of one's sniffer might affect taste and aroma.

Sure, the end result might be pretty close to the same. But at one critical point in history, the understanding of why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west suddenly acquired a second, competing theory. The sun circles the earth. The earth rotates on its axis. On the surface, both theories explain the phenomenon of interest but only one is the truth.

Wilkey