What is overcooking?

[culebra]

I keep hearing references elsewhere to "Cuban's are now overcooking their leaf" It is always a negative connotation.

What does it mean and what are your thoughts on this?

I would love to know

[JMH]

I just saw a thread about this on another forum. [link]http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=112154[/link]

[n2advnture]

It has been speculated that in mid-late 2003 (starting with box codes in AGO03) that the tobacco has been "cooked" to provide a "better smoking experience".

Some say it is not true and others say it is. I have heard that the Cubans have done away with this method in 2005 - who really knows.

The problem is that nobody has officially defined what "cooking" means in regards to what Habanos did or may still be doing.

There is an easy explanation for why nobody has or will say for sure. I can't imagine a vendor or Habanos official saying, "Yes, most of the smokes I have in stock are cooked, but buy 'em anyway."

Now, I have heard that charcoal heaters are installed in drying sheds to reduce high humidity levels so they fall in the desired 65-75% range. That may be indeed where the confusion came in. Someone observing may misconstrue it as "cooking" the tobacco. But this has been done long before 2003.

With all that being sad, the cigars you are smoking today are made from tobacco that was grown in 2002 which, according to Don Alejandro, is one of the best years is a VERY, VERY long time.

While the crop may be great, I have personally noticed that late 2003 and almost all of the 2004 cigars I have smoked have been extremely underfilled. That's ok for smoking now but I personally believe that it will effect long term aging. (shrinkage will lead to horrificly loose draws).

My personal opinion is that this is from the recently implemented "draw machines". Hopefully, they will figure out how to work them properly for the rest of the 05s and on.

Also, of the various vitolas I have tried, I found them to lack the tannins one would expect to find in a young cigar. They are very good smokes now but somewhat flat and one dimensional. I am somewhat leary of what these cigars will taste like with age as they taste so different than young cigars four or five years ago.

Just my $.02 though, so take it for what you paid for it. :-P

[n2advnture]

» I just saw a thread about this on another forum.

» [link]http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=112154[/link]

I have been banned and can't get on...

[dragon]

A few well known and/or influential people make some highly speculative comments and offer opinions, and next thing you know it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and everyone believes it.

Overfilled, underfilled, cooked, won't age well, no ammonia smell when new, etc, etc.......it's a bunch of baseless nonsense if you ask me......some of the best cigars I've ever smoked have been '04 boxcodes including RyJ Churchills, Siglo Vl, Esplendidos, Lusitanias, Mag 46's, BBF's, Trinidad Reyes, and others.

I've actually heard some guys say they will no longer buy any boxes with boxcodes between Sept. 03 and Dec. 04 now because the cigars taste too good right out of the box

[Tampa1257]

Sorry to hear that, I know that CWeekly can be a bit touchy and pull the trigger extremely fast on those they fear will or can upset the status que.

The thread you brought up was started by Alex Li, who is a vendor in HK. He brings to light an aspect from his direct brick & moter market that because of the opinions of the HK collectors has affected his business. The following was my reply on that thread for thoise that are not able to read it.

"I too have read that many of the collectors in your area have had an issue with the differences in the Habanos from the time period in question. I have no direct personal knowledge if this has been due to a change in tobacco (from newer fields which were opened up to increase yield for increased production) or changes with the blending or a difference in the fermentation process.

I have read many opinions that there is a strong belief that the later is a more strongly held belief. Regardless if people acknowledge the difference in the taste, (if the tobacco has been cooked), is still an unknown quantity in everyones mind. I understand that many collectors will not purchase boxes of Habanos from this time period because of this belief. I do not think that anyone will ever know the absolute truth.

In my opinion, the cigars that I have with codes before that time have continued to develop and the flavors evolve, while the boxes during the period in question have remained for the most part unchanged. This leads me to question the benefits of aging these boxes, which would surely impact the decision of the many collectors that buy to age.

For the individuals that enjoy smoking young cigars, the flavors from these are strong, and have not in my opinion developed any complexity, but they are not prone to aging cigars, they are in for let me smoke this Mar 2005 now and enjoy it because it came right off the truck. Well, that is their right and if that is the way they enjoy cigars, they are entitled, but for the many people that enjoy the difference in a mature cigar with 3-5-7-10 years age on them, this change in the boxes coming out of Cuba is alarming. Why? The unknown factor of development and aging potiential. I will say that with very few exception, I also avoid buying cigars with the codes in question, and if I do buy them, they are for smoking now, and not for aging."

My own opinion about the issue is one that "I don't really have a clue" what has happened. The cigars from around Aug 2003 and throughout 2004 have had a totally different "youth" to them from any previous young cigar. They are smoking much "older" than any before them. They do not have the tannics that normally young Habanos have and display. Besides the construction issues (underfilled), I tend to agree that some very drastic change has occured. If it is because they are using tobacco from new fields due to increased yield, or the blends have changed, or the have changed the type of tobacco being used again, there are many different factors that Habanos and those retailer that may know would be willing to talk about. At this point, I do not think that even respected retailers even know the truth.

Is this an issue to be concerned about?

I believe that if you like to buy cigars to age long term, that this is a major issue to consider. If you buy cigars to smoke imeadately, then no issue presents itself.

It is my understanding that Officials from Habanos are keeping very quiet about this. One of the largest Distributors for Habanos S.A. is now faced with a rather substantial problem, they have a sizeable inventory of product from this time period, and frankly, they can not sell it because the collectors that buy from them refuse to buy these codes, thus, this particular distributor has almost 2 years worth of inventory that is sitting there untouched. No one wants it, not even Habanos. Tricky and sticky situation here.

[ALB]

Thanks for all your expert comments gents,

Certainly helps to have such knowlegeable folks on the forum.

[El Presidente]

I broached this subject with the quality control director of R&J factory when I was there in Feb.

The only thing they have changed is introduce Air blowing heaters into the drying rooms. It has reduced drying times for tobacco from 60 days to 45 days. It provides a constant temperature 24 hrs a day.

Revolutionary...no. Has it affected Tannins? Not to my taste. What has affected a reduction in tannin levels has been the removal of dark "thick wrappers" which were a plague from 2002/2003.

Underfilling was also a problem...but a completely different one which appears to have been solved mid 2004.

There appears to be a "snob" element in the buying trade eminating from HK which does not agree with youngish cigars tasting good from the get go. I mean...what will happen to the "aged cigar market" (of whichthe majority resides in HK) if the average punter can enjoy their cigars early?

There are way too many people with a vested interest (those who trade in aged cigars out of HK) who have their hand on their privates while espousing this drivel.

It P#sses me off no end.

[n2advnture]

»...Overfilled, underfilled, cooked, won't age well, no ammonia smell when new, etc, etc.......it's a bunch of baseless nonsense if you ask

» me......

Dragon,

I was just curious what kind of sampling you have had on the 04's to not have noticed how widespread the undfilling problem is. I smoke between 1-4 a day and try not to smoke the same vitola within the same week. In doing so, I have been able to sample a wide variety of sticks from all throughout the year and from a variety of marcas. I have noticed a widespread problem with underfilled smokes. They aren't horrible but if the intention was to age any of them, the draws on them a few years from now would be looser than a ***** while the ships are in.

[dragon]

n2advnture,

I too have smoked quite a few sticks from '04 production, and quite frankly I am not experiencing this problem. I have only had a very few instances of sticks I thought were somewhat underfilled and loose including a couple Monte Edmundos, a Robaina Famoso, and maybe 1 or 2 others........that's it. I've also experienced a couple of tight Partagas 8-9-8s from a box of 10 with a box date of late '03.

On whole, I think the overall construction of '04 production cigars has been very good, maybe I've just been incredibly lucky.

[n2advnture]

» Sorry to hear that, I know that CWeekly can be a bit touchy and pull the

» trigger extremely fast on those they fear will or can upset the status

» que.

I WISH it was something controversial but it still baffles me as to the reason....ridiculous....

short story:

posted a description of a sale that didn't meet the "new" rules - never warned

2 months later got a 30 suspension because of said description

re-registered after 45 days to ask to be let back & was told that I violated the rules by reregistering

[El Presidente]

That is one tough board

[JMH]

Sorry to hear about that n2, I had no idea that they're that tough, or that nit-picky about you re-registering after the ban period. This board has a much more easy going air to it, and is more fun that anything else I've come across out there, thanks El P :-D

[tmos]

Yeah, here El P doesn't ban anyone, he just sends them plugged cigars until they go away.

[El Presidente]

I just haven't worked out how to ban people yet.

On my hit list for 30 day suspensions are:

Dragon

Ken

Anyone who sucks up to Dragon and Ken

:cool:

[Passingwinds]

» A few well known and/or influential people make some highly speculative

» comments and offer opinions, and next thing you know it becomes a self

» fulfilling prophecy and everyone believes it.

»

» Overfilled, underfilled, cooked, won't age well, no ammonia smell when

» new, etc, etc.......it's a bunch of baseless nonsense if you ask

» me......some of the best cigars I've ever smoked have been '04 boxcodes

I'm with you Dragon. All it takes is for some wannabe cigar expert to start a myth and before you know it everyone considers it to be a reality. Another amusing phenomena is that the individuals who post the most on forums are considered to know the most.

I've smoked a lot of cigars and it seems to me the mood I'm in, the place I'm at, and the number of drinks I've had have more impact on how much I enjoy the cigar than do date codes, factory codes, aged/not aged, and the myriad of other nuances the wannabe experts like to speculate about.

[n2advnture]

» I'm with you Dragon. All it takes is for some wannabe cigar expert to

» start a myth and before you know it everyone considers it to be a reality.

» Another amusing phenomena is that the individuals who post the most on

» forums are considered to know the most.

»

» I've smoked a lot of cigars and it seems to me the mood I'm in, the place

» I'm at, and the number of drinks I've had have more impact on how much I

» enjoy the cigar than do date codes, factory codes, aged/not aged, and the

» myriad of other nuances the wannabe experts like to speculate about.

Just in case this was a "shot" at me...if you would read carefully my original post, you will notice that it was prefaced with "it has been speculated..." and follow up by "some say..."

Furthermore, I see no tangible info provided by someone who tries to give the impression that he/she is experienced.

As we are all continually learing, I would take no offense to the "wannabe" comment...especially from someone who doesn't know me. :-P

Just an observation...

[ilikecigars]

hey , mark...how ya do'in ?

wow they wont let ya back in over there...unbelievable...

well good too see ya here..

as for the topic...my opinion which is worth nadda...the new curing has seemed to make a superior product short term...as for long term as far as effects on aging..well we wont know that for yr.s and any opinion is purely speculation at this point..

im not so sure that a bit of extra dryness would/will have such a dramatic effect if at all, i would think it would be minimal but this is only my uneducated opinion...either way theres nothing we can do about it.

as far as aged ..yes i enjoy an old cigar but...only at equal prices if found and also have had some real crappy ones...and have had some freshies which are as good or better then the old ones...taste being subjective and the nature of tabacco and the variables just be happy when you get a real nice cigar aged or young...enjoy it.