"Genuine Connoisseurs among CC buyers"

[zacca]

I think anyone who joins an online forum about one of their hobbies and contributes regularly can be considered a connoisseur.

So I look at like a funnel…

Cigar smokers > Cuban cigar smokers > FOH members > true experts

I guess the debate is where do you draw the line to define connoisseur. It’s subjective because the definition ranges from an enthusiast to expert to one with discriminating taste. So that’s why I reason that anyone who is a regular contributor to an online forum likely falls into one of those 3 categories. 

[JDoughty]

18 hours ago, zacca said:

I guess the debate is where do you draw the line to define connoisseur. It’s subjective because the definition ranges from an enthusiast to expert to one with discriminating taste. So that’s why I reason that anyone who is a regular contributor to an online forum likely falls into one of those 3 categories. 

I mean, my palate doesn't completely suck? I've done some formal training on sensory assessment, albeit not for cigars. As a sensory judge, we are required to taste blind and write very detailed tasting notes before speaking aloud to one another in the discussion phase. Those notes have to be consistent. At the competition level, they are very consistent, though there can be minor differences. For example, one judge may have written 'bitter lime zest' and another 'citrus pith'. Occasionally some of us disagree on something like lime vs lemon, or blackberry vs raspberry, something like that, and we work that out in the discussion phase while figuring out whether there may have been a legitimate reason for the different sensory experience. In some cases there is a reason, especially with espresso. The technical judges let us know during that phase if there was physical variance on the mechanics of the shots pulled. Sometimes there is, and then we all score the shot we were actually served with less of an expectation of complete consistency across the sensory panel. But that isn't a common occurrence, so for the most part you have six individuals plus the head judge writing their notes blind and coming up with very nearly identical and highly detailed flavor analyses. Folks who think that people are completely making up the complex flavor notes can be tasted in coffee should definitely watch a practice USCC judging session.

This said, I am very, very far from an expert. Especially with cigars. I do not have the knowledge that an industry professional or a more serious participant would. I can taste stuff pretty okay, and I know which end of the cigar to cut and which end to light on fire, but that doesn't give me the depth of education that a real expert should have. So I would be very hesitant to call myself a connoisseur. Enthusiast or aficionado, certainly. 

[BonVivant]

Can palate/taste be developed, if it's not there to begin with?

[zacca]

5 hours ago, JDoughty said:

I mean, my palate doesn't completely suck? I've done some formal training on sensory assessment, albeit not for cigars. As a sensory judge, we are required to taste blind and write very detailed tasting notes before speaking aloud to one another in the discussion phase. Those notes have to be consistent. At the competition level, they are very consistent, though there can be minor differences. For example, one judge may have written 'bitter lime zest' and another 'citrus pith'. Occasionally some of us disagree on something like lime vs lemon, or blackberry vs raspberry, something like that, and we work that out in the discussion phase while figuring out whether there may have been a legitimate reason for the different sensory experience. In some cases there is a reason, especially with espresso. The technical judges let us know during that phase if there was physical variance on the mechanics of the shots pulled. Sometimes there is, and then we all score the shot we were actually served with less of an expectation of complete consistency across the sensory panel. But that isn't a common occurrence, so for the most part you have six individuals plus the head judge writing their notes blind and coming up with very nearly identical and highly detailed flavor analyses. Folks who think that people are completely making up the complex flavor notes can be tasted in coffee should definitely watch a practice USCC judging session.

This said, I am very, very far from an expert. Especially with cigars. I do not have the knowledge that an industry professional or a more serious participant would. I can taste stuff pretty okay, and I know which end of the cigar to cut and which end to light on fire, but that doesn't give me the depth of education that a real expert should have. So I would be very hesitant to call myself a connoisseur. Enthusiast or aficionado, certainly. 

I would say palate development / tasting ability has nothing to do with one being an enthusiast. Put another way, I’d say you and every other regular contributor here could rightly be called an enthusiast at the very least. You are enthused about cigars - that implies nothing about ability to describe flavors. 

If you don’t agree with that, I’d simply point you to Hamlet and others from the “Cuban school” - their tasting notes consist of varying degrees of “smooth” and “strong”. You’re never getting bakery, milk chocolate, stone fruit, or anything else from them in a description. Are they not connoisseurs (or enthusiasts or experts)?

So I think the term connoisseur is decoupled from ability to detect tasting notes. There’s another name for those with a strong ability in that area. 

[JDoughty]

7 hours ago, zacca said:

So I think the term connoisseur is decoupled from ability to detect tasting notes. There’s another name for those with a strong ability in that area. 

I agree. Being able to taste does not grant experience or knowledge or education, nor does it confer expert status. Being able to taste does help me evaluate cigars and make buying decisions. So how the product actually tastes might (or might not!) factor into how some companies make marketing decisions, based on how many people they think will actually be influenced by product quality and taste more than by flash and status markers. 

[MrBirdman]

9 hours ago, zacca said:

I would say palate development / tasting ability has nothing to do with one being an enthusiast.

Totally agree. Technically Kirby Allison is a connoisseur even though, by his own admission, he has virtually no tasting ability. 

I know we had some seasoned FOH members struggle with tasting after getting COVID, especially the 2020 variant. They didn’t stop being connoisseurs while their palate was impaired.

[my happy place]

10 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Totally agree. Technically Kirby Allison is a connoisseur even though, by his own admission, he has virtually no tasting ability. 

I know we had some seasoned FOH members struggle with tasting after getting COVID, especially the 2020 variant. They didn’t stop being connoisseurs while their palate was impaired.

What about people that become more opinionated connoisseurs while being impaired?

[Li Bai]

28 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Totally agree. Technically Kirby Allison is a connoisseur even though, by his own admission, he has virtually no tasting ability. 

I know we had some seasoned FOH members struggle with tasting after getting COVID, especially the 2020 variant. They didn’t stop being connoisseurs while their palate was impaired.

With all due respect my fellow botl, I'm having a real hard time computing "Kirby Allison is a connoisseur", even on a technicallity I still can't see it 🤯

[zacca]

18 minutes ago, Li Bai said:

With all due respect my fellow botl, I'm having a real hard time computing "Kirby Allison is a connoisseur", even on a technicallity I still can't see it 🤯

Maybe he’s a connoisseur of being a poseur. That’s still a specialization.

[Havanaaddict]

I found this:

 

Cigar lovers are commonly referred to as aficionados and connoisseurs, but is there a difference? Merriam-Webster does not suggest “aficionado” as a synonym in its definition of connoisseur, “1) : EXPERT, especially : one who understands the details, technique, or principles of an art and is competent to act as a critical judge” and “2) : one who enjoys with discrimination and appreciation of subtleties.” So, if you want to get technical about it, aficionado falls more into the category of being a fan while connoisseur indicates a higher degree of expertise. A cigar lover indulges his or her passion for cigars as an aficionado but becomes a connoisseur through critical knowledge and discriminating taste.

 

[zacca]

34 minutes ago, Havanaaddict said:

but becomes a connoisseur through critical knowledge and discriminating taste.

I agree with this but I think it’s important to note that one can have discriminating taste without being able to describe things like a sommelier. Again I’d point to the Cubans and their manner of describing cigars. 

[MrBirdman]

2 hours ago, Li Bai said:

With all due respect my fellow botl, I'm having a real hard time computing "Kirby Allison is a connoisseur", even on a technicallity I still can't see it 🤯

I assure you, I get no more pleasure saying it than you do reading it. But plenty of wine connoisseurs are jackasses too. The bar for calling oneself a connoisseur really isn’t that high. That’s why we have the appellation “true connoisseur.” 😉

[El Presidente]

 

From the Rob Ayala Dictionary. 👨‍🎓

 

Cigar Connoisseur. 

A person who appreciates the craft, history, and experience of fine cigars, valuing knowledge, flavour, and shared enjoyment.

 

Now if you accepted the above definition, then approximately 75% of FOH members would be connoisseurs. 

 

 

[Li Bai]

8 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

From the Rob Ayala Dictionary. 👨‍🎓

 

Cigar Connoisseur. 

A person who appreciates the craft, history, and experience of fine cigars, valuing knowledge, flavour, and shared enjoyment.

 

Now if you accepted the above definition, then  approximately 75% of FOH members would be connoisseurs. 

 

 

That perfectly works for me 👍

[Ford2112]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

From the Rob Ayala Dictionary. 👨‍🎓

 

Cigar Connoisseur. 

A person who appreciates the craft, history, and experience of fine cigars, valuing knowledge, flavour, and shared enjoyment.

 

Now if you accepted the above definition, then approximately 75% of FOH members would be connoisseurs. 

So basically quality, craftsmanship and tradition? By jove, Kirby IS a connoisseur!!

[JDoughty]

5 hours ago, Li Bai said:

With all due respect my fellow botl, I'm having a real hard time computing "Kirby Allison is a connoisseur", even on a technicallity I still can't see it 🤯

Same. He says he literally can't taste cigars. He may have some education about them, but I have a very hard time calling someone a connoisseur if they can not perform even the most basic level of sensory assessment. They may still be an expert on the subject, but I would stop short of calling them a connoisseur. I know that some expert rollers and blenders like Hamlet say that they don't get complex flavor notes, but they *can* perform a competent sensory assessment. In Hamlet's case, obviously he does a very fine job of that. I don't think that Kirby can, based on what he has said himself. It has nothing to do with his personality, but with the complete absence of the ability to assess and identify tobacco by flavor profile. I do think that this is one of the necessary components to have at some point in your journey, though it is a very good point that if you lose that ability through illness or accident, that doesn't take away what you learned from the experience of having had it. 

[Fuzz AI]

11 hours ago, El Presidente said:

From the Rob Ayala Dictionary. 👨‍🎓

 

Cigar Connoisseur. 

A person who appreciates the craft, history, and experience of fine cigars, valuing knowledge, flavour, and shared enjoyment.

 

Now if you accepted the above definition, then approximately 75% of FOH members would be connoisseurs. 

Aww crap, I'm out.