Authentic construction? Help please.

[Ginseng]

Hello,

I recently took apart a cigar that was purported to be a fake. A fake Cohiba Siglo VI to be exact. This was recently bought at a resort on the island of Cuba. Two photos follow.

I'm hoping that someone here who might have been to a factory and seen how filler leaves were prepared might be able to comment as to the way these leaves are cut. Any particular experience in the Cohiba factory would be especially helpful I think.

I soaked the leaves and then unrolled them and laid them out flat. It was my hope that this might reveal some insights based on a more exhaustive examination of the contents.

Here is a picture of the main filler leaves and the two binder leaves. You'll notice that the three big primary filler leaves are large and almost completely intact. The center section also seems to have the lower part of the main stem cut out. I have no idea of whether this is common practice but will do a little digging to see if it might be. The first thing that comes to mind is that why would counterfeiters go to the trouble of making three extra cuts? These three leaves also look to be different based strictly on color. The binders were also substantial and quite uniform. In other words, all indications suggest that this was decent quality tobacco that was well handled.

Here is a picture of the smaller filler leaves and the wrapper. The wrapper looks very fine, vein free and silky. Even among the smaller pieces, all of which are roughly triangular, there appears to be a variety of colors, suggestive of leaves taken from various positions on the plant or from different plants.

The tobacco smelled good, was resilient and took to handling well. There also appeared to be a distinct blending of leaves based, at least, on color. So, I'm puzzled. DId I just dissect a genuine Cohiba? Was this an exceptionally well-made fugazy? I won't know until I smoke one this Thursday.

One of the "ugly" ones was smoked already and the results were truly horrible. I don't know about this pretty one though.

Wilkey

[CIGARHead]

Wilkey,

What was it about the cigars that made you think they were fake in the first place?

I personally couldnt tell from the pictures, mainly because it could be a well made NC. From what Ive seen and heard, fakes can range from top quality NC to scraps, hair, **** and the like. Hope you didnt spend a bunch of dough on fakes:-(

[Ginseng]

» Wilkey,

»

» What was it about the cigars that made you think they were fake in the

» first place?

» I personally couldnt tell from the pictures, mainly because it could be a

» well made NC. From what Ive seen and heard, fakes can range from top

» quality NC to scraps, hair, **** and the like. Hope you didnt spend a

» bunch of dough on fakes:-(

Nope,

I didn't buy these. A friend of mine on another forum had a friend buy these for him on her recent trip to Cuba. I know, bad idea. Well, he picked up around 15 Sig VIs and there seemed to be at least two, maybe three, different "varieties in there. One was truly ugly in appearance and turned out to smoke like dog ****. This one was cosmetically very nice...it was guilt by association with the fugly fauxhiba that at least provisionally is making me regard this as a suspect.

I have also heard that fakes can range from near-decent to rocket. This one looked beautiful, but it may still smoke like the beast.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to smoke a suspected fake Bolivar Coronas. There were many clues from the box to the appearance of the cigar. The band, however, was indistinguishable from the band on a Boli Tubos No.2 I got from Rob. The proof was in the smoking. If this cigar was a genuine Boli, then I need to stop smoking cigars.

Take a look at the log I found when I dissected the stub.

Wilkey

[genevapics]

If this guy is truely a friend, let him in on a little secret called Cigar Czar. Once he starts ordering his smokes from Rob he will thank you in spades!

[strayvector]

Wilkey, looks like a fake to me. Long filler is just that and not in bits like the one you took apart. Even short fillers can look beautiful if the binder and wrapper is put together with care.

I had the opportunity of watching a Cuban master roller as he rolled quite a few smokes in the span of 2 hours at a Hunters and Frankau shop in London. He rolled everything from panatellas to double robustos and perfectos. During his demonstrations, the translator said that all hand made cubans used long fillers and the leaves used should be the length of the cigar. In a cigar, there can be more than one leaf used for the filler to make up the blend, but to keep the consistency of flavor, each leaf should be the length of the cigar. Based on that, I think you've exposed a fake.

[strayvector]

Of course, its entirely possible that the filler pieces you pictured were long fillers that fell apart when you took the cigar apart; however, knowing how careful and meticulous you are, that was probably not the case.

As to the fake Bolivar coronas, I was pretty sure they were fakes from the pictures and other clues. Now, the question is what to do about the source? Supposedly, it came from a reputable dealer in Canada. Guess not.

[Ginseng]

Sam,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. What you're saying makes great sense to me now that I'm thinking about it away from the tobacco vapors. I've never taken apart an unsmoked high-quality, long filler cigar but I had always assumed there might be small pieces in there anyway to round things out. But now after hearing about your rolling experience, I know this doesn't makes sense.

As for the Bolivar, I think we need to spread the word about this vendor, but in a discreet fashion. Perhaps he should do this after he has attempted to get reparations from the vendor. I don't know.

Thanks,

Wilkey

[Fatshotbud]

Thanks for the photos Wilkey

I was working a job this past month and one of the personnel there (Captain of the vessel) lived in Mexico. He saw me smoking a cigar and asked if I had ever smoked a Cuban? Told him I was enjoying a RyJ Exhibicion #4 and smoked Cubans quite often – WHY??

As if I did not know it was coming he says “Man! I can get you all you want for a decent price” followed by “You ever try those Cohibas ones”?

I declined and thanked him for the offer. I then mentioned to him that Mexico was notorious for fake Cubans. He was of course in denial that they might be fakes since it was his local store and they cost $6-$8 each.

Anyone need to get hooked up with a new vendor? (Just kidding Rob!!!)

By the way Wilkey – how the heck you going to get that thing put back together to smoke it??

[Fatshotbud]

» Of course, its entirely possible that the filler pieces you pictured were

» long fillers that fell apart when you took the cigar apart;

What about when they are bunched together during the rolling process? Could be they were fractured and resulted in them falling apart?

Not defending the vendor or authenticity - just a reverse engineering question. ;-)

[Ginseng]

» » Of course, its entirely possible that the filler pieces you pictured

» were

» » long fillers that fell apart when you took the cigar apart;

»

» What about when they are bunched together during the rolling process?

» Could be they were fractured and resulted in them falling apart?

»

» Not defending the vendor or authenticity - just a reverse engineering

» question. ;-)

I would guess that the leaves are fairly supple during the actual rolling. Tearing is probably unlikely.

I was quite careful when unwrapping the cigar and I am quite sure that the fragments are in fact fragments. They fell out of the bunch when the binder was unrolled. I soaked them to unfold them. As for the big pieces, I also soaked them in water before unrolling them moist and that is why they are mainly intact.

Wilkey

[El Presidente]

Not bad. Appears to be reasonalble quality leaf.

The better fakes are rolled at home by rollers who work in the factories during the day (or ex rollers). Who can blame them....$12 USD a month in the factory. Everyone needs a sideline in Havana and 4-5 boxes of fakes per month at $30 USD goes a long way to make ends meet.

Top end fake for reasons already covered. Someone has gone to a little bit of trouble.

[Ginseng]

» Not bad. Appears to be reasonalble quality leaf.

»

» The better fakes are rolled at home by rollers who work in the factories

» during the day (or ex rollers). Who can blame them....$12 USD a month in

» the factory. Everyone needs a sideline in Havana and 4-5 boxes of fakes

» per month at $30 USD goes a long way to make ends meet.

»

» Top end fake for reasons already covered. Someone has gone to a little bit

» of trouble.

Thanks for chiming in Rob. I was waiting for your comment. :-)

BTW, do they put the bands on as well at the time of rolling? Or are they applied further on down the fake channel? If they apply them, does this mean they are stealing bands? And, are the bands printed in Cuba?

Wilkey

[El Presidente]

» » Not bad. Appears to be reasonalble quality leaf.

» »

» » The better fakes are rolled at home by rollers who work in the

» factories

» » during the day (or ex rollers). Who can blame them....$12 USD a month

» in

» » the factory. Everyone needs a sideline in Havana and 4-5 boxes of fakes

» » per month at $30 USD goes a long way to make ends meet.

» »

» » Top end fake for reasons already covered. Someone has gone to a little

» bit

» » of trouble.

»

» Thanks for chiming in Rob. I was waiting for your comment. :-)

»

» BTW, do they put the bands on as well at the time of rolling? Or are they

» applied further on down the fake channel? If they apply them, does this

» mean they are stealing bands? And, are the bands printed in Cuba?

»

» Wilkey

Difference between a Cohiba Espendido and a R&J Churchill is the boxes and bands available.

Bands are applied later subject to materials at hand.

Bands are either stolen, printed or photocopied (have seen all three)

Boxes are either re-used, stolen or fake (printed). Authentic seals are a dime a dozen and generally stolen from the factories.

[Ginseng]

» Difference between a Cohiba Espendido and a R&J Churchill is the boxes and

» bands available.

»

» Bands are applied later subject to materials at hand.

»

» Bands are either stolen, printed or photocopied (have seen all three)

»

» Boxes are either re-used, stolen or fake (printed). Authentic seals are a

» dime a dozen and generally stolen from the factories.

Dang!

[strayvector]

»

» Difference between a Cohiba Espendido and a R&J Churchill is the boxes and

» bands available.

»

Prez, does this pertain to fakes or authentic merchandise? I've smoked real ones of both (guess from where:-D ), but with quite a bit of time in between them and can't remember if they tasted the same or not, just that they were both excellent sticks.

[Ginseng]

e Here is my account of the smoking of one of the "pretty" suspected fakes such as the one I dissected in the opening post of this thread.

********************************

Today I carried out the second in a series investigative smoking sessions. The first involved an alleged bogus Bolivar Coronas. A friend sent me a few of these "Siglo VI's" to try. By this time, another friend knowledgeable in Cohibas had already had the misfortune of taste testing one of the fugly specimens and his taste buds paid dearly for it. I had high hopes for this nice looking cigar especially after I took one apart and found that it had some nice leaves inside. Alas, my hopes were dashed once I put fire to the foot.

As you can see from the picture below, it was a great looking stick. The wrapper was fine and uniform with delicate veining. The bunching was nice and full and the head was topped with a well executed triple cap. But that's where the good stuff ended. There is no pre-light picture and no long ash shot. What you see below is where I had to put this stick down because it just tasted bad. The flavor was of poorly fermented tobacco with a lingering sour taste delivered by thin, harsh smoke. Based on what I have read and learned from those more knowledgeable, it's very likely that this was rolled by a professional torcedor in Cuba, probably at home and using anonymous leaf. The band is very good and likely to be authentic and stolen from the factory. In other words, rolled as a Cohiba might be rolled but using non-Cohiba quality leaf.

I would consider this particular counterfeit a very difficult specimen to identify. In the identification of bogus Habanos, there are three levels of analysis. First, visual inspection of external features of the cigar, band and packaging. Second, forensic analysis of the internal materials and construction of the cigar. Third and most conclusively, the taste test. This knock-off passed the first, was questionable at the second and failed the third. In the case of the second level of analysis, input by our own Prez and Strayvector helped seal the deal.

To scrub my tongue and get back some appreciation for good Cuban leaf, I then turned to an unlikely and uncommon candidate, the Jose L. Piedra Cremas. The Cremas is a machine-bunched hand-finished, mixed/short filler cigar that is 5-1/4" x 39 rg. So, this is not a stick that most would think of when they think of a premium Habanos experience. However, this cigar was one of a bundle of circa-1998 vintage that was gifted to me by a fellow cigar smoker, from Australia nonetheless!

As you can tell from the pictures below, it is not a pretty stick at all. In fact, it's quite rustic in appearance no doubt compounded by the fact that it spent the better part of seven years crammed in a cello-wrapped bundle. I've got a bunch of recent production Cremas and Brevas and I can say that recent production looks much like production of the late 90's.

Lighting was effortless and a few puffs later, I was huffing some seriously mellow Cuban tobacco. While the JLP brand is often described as old-school and strong, the years this cigar spent resting had apparently softened the rough edges. Smoke volume was prodigious for such a thin gauge cigar and the texture was rounded and full. No need to look here for nuances of citrus, cedar or spices. If straight-up Havana leaf is what you're after, then this stick fits the bill to a "T." The draw was a bit loose, as was expected. Surprisingly, the gnarly medium-dark gray ash held for 1.5" at a time. The size was just right for holding between my teeth as I read my papers. I managed to smoke this little trooper down to the last inch and I enjoyed every puff. Straightforward, rich, earthy tobacco was the payload and the Cremas delivered it well.

As far as a cheap smoke goes, I'd pick one of these any day over the dozens of comparable NC bundlers. At about $3 a stick, if I had the room, I'd put down a bundle every other month so that I'd have a steady supply of these for casual smoking.

Note: The provider of this bundle was puzzled as to why I did not initially make note of the chocolate and cocoa notes in the aroma and flavor. Well, to be honest, it took about half of the cigar to scrub the nasty sour taste of the Fauxhiba from my palate. This simply was not one of my better tasting sessions.

Wilkey

[The Privateer]

I feel your pain Ginseng....a friend and I shared a fake Hoyomid and the bitterness it gave off tainted everything we smoked after during that night.

[El Presidente]

Great work again Wilkey.

What you have experienced is why I cringe when I hear people state " I have had a Cohiba Robusto once and I thought it was way overrated"

You tend to wonder (in the US) what % of Cubans are fakes at any given time?

[SeanGAR]

» You tend to wonder (in the US) what % of Cubans are fakes at any given

» time?

Its amazing how gullible some people are over here ... but the people who educate themselves on most cigar forums know where to look for the good stuff. :-P

Again, nice work Wilkie

[GoatLocker]

Sorry you had to endure the crappy tasting fakes!

As for the short bits in the filler, I watched Master Taboada last time he was in TJ, and as he bunched up each leaf, he tore off a piece from the end and tucked it in. This way, one section has a bit more seco, another more volado, another an extra kick of ligero, etc. Not sure if this is typical of all habanos.

[Taino]

Great posts Ginseng! like going to the classroom, many thanks.

[raney]

» You tend to wonder (in the US) what % of Cubans are fakes at any given

» time?

»

I tend to settle on: all but mine, and those in the posession of people who buy from the same places I do.