Humidity & Temperature Controller

[PigFish]

6 hours ago, primo said:

@PigFish Sorry...  I am worried that the fluctuation of the temp in my humidor from 69F-75F will potentially dry out my cigars.  The humidity stays constants around 67%-68%.  My questions would be...  Is the temp fluctuation an issue?  If so, what can I do to keep it constant?  Like I say, the temp in the house is pretty constant throughout.  

 

... again, I am a little confused!

Is your humidor temperature controlled? If not, it will range with your house, yes? if your house is pretty constant, then so will your humidor...!? Or, are we talking a tower humidor where the range in temperature at any given time is 6F top to bottom??? Perhaps you see my confusion.

This is neither here nor there. 6F range at 68rH is too high for my taste in the first place. So if I am considering my taste, then the cigars will likely smoke better at 75F and 68rH than lower.

I cannot see this range ruining cigars, meaning by fines. I can see the tastes as the result of water ruining my smoking experience (but this is an opinions based subjective answer).

You therefore don't have anything here to worry about, given the range and fines (MHO). What you do risk is that "I" would not like one, and that should not be a major concern to you.

In conclusion I have to ask, how do they smoke? If you have been smoking cigars in this range, Cuban cigars, NC cigars and otherwise, and you find now smoking issues and good taste, then your worries more more mental than dental.

Again, welcome to the forum.

-the Pig

[primo]

2 minutes ago, PigFish said:

... again, I am a little confused!

Is your humidor temperature controlled? If not, it will range with your house, yes? if your house is pretty constant, then so will your humidor...!? Or, are we talking a tower humidor where the range in temperature at any given time is 6F top to bottom??? Perhaps you see my confusion.

This is neither here nor there. 6F range at 68rH is too high for my taste in the first place. So if I am considering my taste, then the cigars will likely smoke better at 75F and 68rH than lower.

I cannot see this range ruining cigars, meaning by fines. I can see the tastes as the result of water ruining my smoking experience (but this is an opinions based subjective answer).

You therefore don't have anything here to worry about, given the range and fines (MHO). What you do risk is that "I" would not like one, and that should not be a major concern to you.

In conclusion I have to ask, how do they smoke? If you have been smoking cigars in this range, Cuban cigars, NC cigars and otherwise, and you find now smoking issues and good taste, then your worries more more mental than dental.

Again, welcome to the forum.

-the Pig

@PigFish Yes our house is controlled with gas heat and A/C.  It is constant at about 70F.  I have a 300ct desktop humidor.  As for how I like my cigars...  I like the oils.  I don't like them too dry.  I like to taste my cigar but not at the cost of it being to wet to light.  

[PigFish]

... you then are making the assumption that 'oils' are volatile, where volatility is based on temperature, that oils are what you taste, and they possibly exit the cigar with water loss.

That is okay... A lot of folks have some of these beliefs, I am just not one of them.

I don't believe that 'oils' are the basis for the taste of the cigar. Or that the visual aspect of 'oils present to the eye' make for a better or worse cigar. We therefore think differently on the topic. Again, that is not bad, I think differently than many on many a topic.

Again, I don't believe that any of these fluctuations are going to affect the 'life' of your cigars. I do believe that they will affect your taste and smoking experience based on my tastes, as my tastes are the only tool in this subjective world I can use to judge...

Cigars are constantly exchanging water. Just because they are at equilibrium, a 'balanced' state with the ambient, does not mean that water is not leaving nor being received by the tobacco. Equilibrium is an exchange state, not a state, static in nature. It is a 'balance state' of net gain and loss, not a state frozen by 'no' gain or 'no' loss.

The theory of volatile oils would have a means of known decay, a loss in weight and taste over time, if that were the case. Once more, the losses could be tested for and then predicted. Cigar tastes would, or could be charted against a known rate of decay and that would blow apart the entire collector world! I see no evidence for this in 30+ years of smoking cigars.

... the collector world, would not not allow it to exist...! -LOL

Cheers! -Piggy

[primo]

19 minutes ago, PigFish said:

... you then are making the assumption that 'oils' are volatile, where volatility is based on temperature, that oils are what you taste, and they possibly exit the cigar with water loss.

That is okay... A lot of folks have some of these beliefs, I am just not one of them.

I don't believe that 'oils' are the basis for the taste of the cigar. Or that the visual aspect of 'oils present to the eye' make for a better or worse cigar. We therefore think differently on the topic. Again, that is not bad, I think differently than many on many a topic.

Again, I don't believe that any of these fluctuations are going to affect the 'life' of your cigars. I do believe that they will affect your taste and smoking experience based on my tastes, as my tastes are the only tool in this subjective world I can use to judge...

Cigars are constantly exchanging water. Just because they are at equilibrium, a 'balanced' state with the ambient, does not mean that water is not leaving nor being received by the tobacco. Equilibrium is an exchange state, not a state, static in nature. It is a 'balance state' of net gain and loss, not a state frozen by 'no' gain or 'no' loss.

The theory of volatile oils would have a means of known decay, a loss in weight and taste over time, if that were the case. Once more, the losses could be tested for and then predicted. Cigar tastes would, or could be charted against a known rate of decay and that would blow apart the entire collector world! I see no evidence for this in 30+ years of smoking cigars.

... the collector world, would not not allow it to exist...! -LOL

Cheers! -Piggy

So let me ask then...  Based on what I am stating about the humidity level and the fluctuation in temp from about 69F-75F, what would you expect in taste?  What is your ideal taste and based on that where do you keep yours?  I understand this is a preference question but I am trying to get a gauge on how to possible adjust for taste.

[PigFish]

Just now, primo said:

So let me ask then...  Based on what I am stating about the humidity level and the fluctuation in temp from about 69F-75F, what would you expect in taste?  What is your ideal taste and based on that where do you keep yours?  I understand this is a preference question but I am trying to get a gauge on how to possible adjust for taste.

I would say to discount what 'any' smoker tells you to do with your cigars, as a general "warning" about the internet cigar world. "Bad data" is prevalent all over the net.

Spend some time reading the forum... While we have had at least dozens, "what conditions do you use" threads on the forum, you should ask your question to the broader audience.

I build climate controlled humidors as a sideline. I store at 70F and 60 to 61 (depending on the humidor) rH. My humidors are very consistent.

Based on my tastes then, your cigars are way, way too wet. But again, I am just one guy. Perhaps try dry-boxing a few cigars and see if a dryer cigar suits your tastes. I think it makes a world of difference, but again, I am just one opinion in a sea of many.

Best of luck on your storage! Cheers! -Piggy

[primo]

Thank you.  I appreciate the information.  Depending on the cigar, I do like dry..  For the most part, I like them a bit wet.

[PigFish]

16 hours ago, joejack11 said:

@pigfish 

Nice i like the controller on your older post, reminds me alot of Dixell controllers, ( but i know theres so many different brands that share a similar faceplate look )

Im Currently used to using CPC sensors, along with a CPC emerson E2 controller.when i set up Controls for customers.  

Thank you...

There are many types of controllers and I have one OEM'd for me in Europe. This is the only way I could get both direct and reverse control on two axis out of such a small package. I am now actually working on just building my own from a more robust PLC and HMI. I am behind on that project as it sits on my desk and runs in demonstration mode and has gone little farther!

I am at a mid-point today working on what I call parallel process control. I am using my current controller as a parametric controller that is easy for customers to use and understand and working on 'downstream' processing via a separate PLC. This is still in its infancy with me... and largely theoretical. The nice thing about this method is that I can take the raw digital output of my first PLC and perform more complex processes on it based on programming and not fixed by limited parameter logic.

I have a couple of guinea pigs in the pipe (customers) that I hope to experiment on... It should be interesting!

These are very cool little controllers. To give you a sense of size that is an SD cart on top of one.

-Piggy

[joejack11]

Thank you...

There are many types of controllers and I have one OEM'd for me in Europe. This is the only way I could get both direct and reverse control on two axis out of such a small package. I am now actually working on just building my own from a more robust PLC and HMI. I am behind on that project as it sits on my desk and runs in demonstration mode and has gone little farther!

I am at a mid-point today working on what I call parallel process control. I am using my current controller as a parametric controller that is easy for customers to use and understand and working on 'downstream' processing via a separate PLC. This is still in its infancy with me... and largely theoretical. The nice thing about this method is that I can take the raw digital output of my first PLC and perform more complex processes on it based on programming and not fixed by limited parameter logic.

I have a couple of guinea pigs in the pipe (customers) that I hope to experiment on... It should be interesting!

These are very cool little controllers. To give you a sense of size that is an SD cart on top of one.



-Piggy

Do you write the programs to your PLC yourself ? Or do you have a company that does that ?

Also do you have the controllers built to your specs in terms of relay contacts quality gold plate, platinum , copper, etc etc.

Furthermore , the controller your using sounds quite nice. I like .

And yes I mean with those controller package size , there's several NC and NO contacts that can switch open and close etc.

Johnson controls here has a newer version of the a419 which I believe does heat and cool. But is not small controller format .

I like where your heading with the controls , any plans on adding a network modem ? Example
My e2 controller has a network modem, so with the MAC address , I can log into the controller remotely to graph temps and humidity for 1month down to 5 second increments.

My thoughts would be cool to have a network module so the end user / commissioner can make program changes if ever needed to ensure product integrity.

Btw I'm from the US , not too fimilar with European brands but I do have experience with Danfoss from Denmark which also makes controls and PLC.

Justin


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[PigFish]

7 minutes ago, joejack11 said:

Do you write the programs to your PLC yourself ? Or do you have a company that does that ?

Also do you have the controllers built to your specs in terms of relay contacts quality gold plate, platinum , copper, etc etc.

Furthermore , the controller your using sounds quite nice. I like .

And yes I mean with those controller package size , there's several NC and NO contacts that can switch open and close etc.

Johnson controls here has a newer version of the a419 which I believe does heat and cool. But is not small controller format .

I like where your heading with the controls , any plans on adding a network modem ? Example
My e2 controller has a network modem, so with the MAC address , I can log into the controller remotely to graph temps and humidity for 1month down to 5 second increments.

My thoughts would be cool to have a network module so the end user / commissioner can make program changes if ever needed to ensure product integrity.

Btw I'm from the US , not too fimilar with European brands but I do have experience with Danfoss from Denmark which also makes controls and PLC.

Justin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These are just two of available packages. These are simple and not too expensive and they have 6DI and 6 (sinking) outs. I have a couple that have analog inputs as well and Modbus via RS232. They can be connected to a package that communicates but I have not gone there. My HMI for example will communicate and then return parameters back to the controller via Modbus, but I am getting ahead of myself here. HMI and a stout but inexpensive PLC is where this is going... or at least where I want it to go, as those platforms are still developing and getting cheaper and better all the time. The days of purpose built climate control is splitting... and commercial packages are way too expensive, large and complex and at the same time offer very little that the cigar humidor administrator really wants and needs. Purpose built for a commercial operation is not what we need... MHO. Purpose build for humidor control is what is needed, but that need not be proprietary. Proprietary is nothing more than a datum in market history, waiting for obsolescence. Flexibility, based on what the market perfects is more to my liking. That is where I am going anyway.

I program myself, but have limited skills. I work within the realm of what interests me and I do not have a broad-based PLC programming background. It is not what I 'do.' I am a creature of necessity. I have done some ladder logic programming etc., as the needs arise. I manage to come up with what I need to pull-off the function that I want and that is all that is necessary. As a boutique business, largely driven for the fun of pursuing the 'perfect humidor,' it is not highly profitable, therefore consultants are not a prime source of my knowledge. I am a renaissance individual (man).

When it comes to humidors, unlike climate control of a commercial building (or refrigeration for that matter) there is very little need for communication capability. Energy use in a commercial building, not to mention the complexity of such a project requires connectivity. Humidors run the same, day in and day out. There is no (and therefore little) need to control them offsite (or from a distance) except as a novelty. If you master control and automation, offsite viewing and control is money wasted (MHO) and therefore not a priority to me. Why watch something that runs perfectly, unless you are just fascinated by how it runs (which I happen to enjoy, but not while I am on vacation)! Warehouse climate control would be another matter. I am not working in that field.

My controllers are build to a level of control. I don't choose hardware components, it would be too expensive. I don't have the business to support a 'component up' built controller. It is why I chose an commercial automation controls outfit. I wanted them to do that work for me! What is also important is affordability. People don't want to spend a lot for a small controller, when they don't understand the processes involved. And even if they did, the cost would outweigh the benefit. They just want it to work as you say it works... -LOL An inexpensive (affordable) bi-directional control that supports the precision logic that I require to pull this off is not easy to find... Trust me! Of course you can use two bi-directional universal controllers, but the more instruments you use, the more room you lose, the heat you make etc... It is all a balancing act and the consumer's budget is a big piece of that equation.

Nice talking to you Justin.

-Ray