Relative humidity and temperature

[tomhsu]

I started to use a 6.5 ft tall wine cooler to store my cigars at home. The wine cooler has the advantage that it regulates the temperature while not allowing for a certain level of humidity to remain in the cooler (good wines need stable humidity too). And I use a Le Veil humidification system. I have two Adorini analog hygrometers. And I did build in a air circulation system using a CPU fan and some pipes. The humidity measured is around 65-70% RH at a temperature of 16-18C or 60-65F.

So far so good. The question I have is regarding the amount of water vapor relative to the air temperature.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Relative_Humidity.png

E.g. the level of water vapor in the air @ 75F / 25C is ca. double compared to 65F / 15C. My questions:

Shouldn't humidor working at lower temperatures also be regulated at a higher RH ? If yes, anyone with some data / background on ideal temp/RH ratios for cigar storage?

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[tomhsu]

BTW, pictures of my new baby. Now it's just about adjusting to the ideal temp / RH settings






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[Frank Rizzo]

I read a well reasoned and insightful thread on this somewhere. Give me time to find it, but the gist is- no. It's all about RH, regardless of temp (excluding extremities).

[Frank Rizzo]

Found it. In this very forum of all places. Look to the reply by Pigfish.

[PigFish]

... as temperature drops, the cigars' affinity for water grows. Water vapor makes bonds with tobacco as it does with itself, and the lower the temperature, the less energy water has, the stronger the bond with tobacco. The lower the temperature, the stronger the bond that water has with itself.

rH is not all that matters! You are after a percent moisture content, meaning a combination of energy (temperature) and saturation level (rH) to find the conditions that are to your taste.

The lower the temperature, the dryer you must keep cigars to retain a fixed PMC. Let them get too cool and you may get capillary water in the cigar and mold.

Hope that helps! -the Pig

[Fataman]

... as temperature drops, the cigars' affinity for water grows. Water vapor makes bonds with tobacco as it does with itself, and the lower the temperature, the less energy water has, the stronger the bond with tobacco. The lower the temperature, the stronger the bond that water has with itself.

rH is not all that matters! You are after a percent moisture content, meaning a combination of energy (temperature) and saturation level (rH) to find the conditions that are to your taste.

The lower the temperature, the dryer you must keep cigars to retain a fixed PMC. Let them get too cool and you may get capillary water in the cigar and mold.

Hope that helps! -the Pig

Thanks for this pig. This is probably the simplest explanation you will ever see detailing the temperature/RH relationship.

[tomhsu]

Folks, this is really helpful stuff. And as it seems, Pigfish has dedicated some quality time looking into this, so thanks for sharing your knowledge. One more question though: Currently my cigars are being stored at 65F/18C with RH between 65% and 70%. Does these parameters sound reasonable to you ?
Cheers,
Tom


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[PigFish]

1 hour ago, tomhsu said:

Folks, this is really helpful stuff. And as it seems, Pigfish has dedicated some quality time looking into this, so thanks for sharing your knowledge. One more question though: Currently my cigars are being stored at 65F/18C with RH between 65% and 70%. Does these parameters sound reasonable to you ?
Cheers,
Tom


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Not to me, but this is a preference question, where a consensus is not needed or called for. Personal taste, myth and beliefs may certainly have a role, but as I said a consensus is not called for.

Many people on this forum like this range, so they will likely answer you with a yes, but I am outside of the average here. In my opinion there is no need to store cigars under 70F, as a matter of fact it makes cigars harder to store due to the fact that tobacco transfers water at slower rate here, the cigars are wetter than I like here and the potential for mold and other maladies are greater here. Taste is a primary motivator for me. So when I store at 70F and 60rH, and you (or others) suggest 65rH (wetter) and 65F (wetter still) I cringe... This does not make it wrong, nor bad, it means one guy out of millions of smokers prefers something different.

I can imagine if there are people looking to chime in on this thread, this will bring them out and they will buttress your preference. If you are looking for rationale, someone will give it to you as this is a preference question, and there will likely be a few that come along with the rationale. 

Cheers! -P

[tomhsu]

...indeed the world of cigar smokers seem to be classified by smokers who love their cigars either drier or more humid. I trend more towards the second category. However, (from what I read) the lower the temperature, the lower the threshold to develop mold. Reflecting upon it I may want to consider going to the safe side and reduce the rh (to 55-60%) and use a second humidor with higher rH (65-70%) to store those cigars which I will be smoking soon. Hmm, just some wild, immature thoughts.
Saludos,
Tom


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[Fugu]

On 13/12/2016 at 7:13 AM, Fataman said:

Thanks for this pig. This is probably the simplest explanation you will ever see detailing the temperature/RH relationship.

What Piggy did wasn't detailing on the temp/rH relationship (that's simple thermodynamics and easy to understand), but explaining the more tricky temperature/tobacco moisture relationship, which is not following simple theorems! A thing that people tend to confuse regularly...

[Fataman]

What Piggy did wasn't detailing on the temp/rH relationship (that's simple thermodynamics and easy to understand), but explaining the more tricky temperature/tobacco moisture relationship, which is not following simple theorems! A thing that people tend to confuse regularly...

I was referring to the temperature/RH humidity relationship in terms of how it affects water content in cigars (this being a cigar forum). Which I assumed was rather self explanatory and quite simple to understand from Piggy's post.

[tomhsu]

Yes, Piggy's post on the relationship of humidity, temperature and tobacco was the best I have seen so far. Truly appreciate this introduction to cigar climatology. I am clearer now on my target settings for my humidor. Thanks to you all!


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