How Long Is Too Long - Aging

[NSXCIGAR]

On 8/20/2016 at 0:03 PM, fabes said:

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on cigars that come in wooden boxes like QdO vs dress boxes. I know people go crazy for cabs and that makes perfect sense. How does a wooden box like a QdO compare to a standard dress box or even a cab. It seems that there would be less air circulation in QdO coronas than a cab. And in my experience QdO seems to get more heavenly the longer they rest. Same for cigars like Monte Especial. Is there a reason those cigars are put in those type of boxes and others get standard dress boxes?

Good discussion on this topic in the thread below. It was many people's opinion (including mine) that the 8-9-8 Varnished box (VW-898 or the VW-343) is the most superior packaging format for serious long-term aging for several reasons, followed by a varnished or lacquered BN box (Cohiba Esplendidos, Cohiba Maduro 5s, Gran Reservas). It was also the consensus that a standard UW-SLB really isn't superior to a CB (dress box) or even a SBN (used for all QdO models) for aging. 

 

[5thStarChicago]

On 8/19/2016 at 5:45 PM, brschoppe said:

In the past few weeks I have seen a few boxes that Rob has put up on the site from his trip to Hong Kong.  Some of these were from 2009, the year my son was born.  Not knowing anything about acquiring Cuban cigars nor anything about aging back then, I didn't think to pick up a box from that year.  I have always had this vision of sitting back with my son on a camping trip in 2027 or 2030 when my son is 18 or 21 and enjoying a cigar from his birth year with him.  My question is would that cigar have aged past it prime our would it still have a good taste?  I was just wondering if was worth while seeking out and making the investment at this point?  Maybe my better bet is seeking out the 12 year old bottle of scotch in 2021 or 18 year old bottle in 2027 and enjoy it with whatever cigars are around at that time?

My thought on this is simple.  It's absolutely worth the investment just for the sentimental / tradition of your idea and it'll be way cheaper to invest now than later.  The cigar, no matter what it is, is going to change over that time.  Maybe it's amazing, maybe it's peaked, but who cares as that's not the point of your exercise.  If it's stored correctly, you'll have an awesome experience, it won't be "bad" or "expired".  It'll be great for the moment.

Here's another way to look at it.  You get a box of 25 cigars from 2009.  Smoke one now for reference sake, then smoke one every year on your son's birthday as a tribute and to see what aging does.  You'll still have some left to share with him on his 18th or 21st birthday and you've gotten to experience them along the way.

Apologies if someone else already posted this idea.  I started reading the thread and sensed an "aging debate" which, although fun and productive, doesn't necessarily address the ritual aspect of the situation.

[Dimmers]

Interesting discussion. Agree its mostly a crapshoot, at best an educated guess. And just to add to the fun…. what about quality of the harvest year as something to consider as well ? (and not just an “aging” specific question).

Smokes of the same marca+ vitola can differ from year to year. I’ve had some examples from differing boxes/years (ie only 1-3 years apart) that differed taste wise more that I would have expected.

And yes this can be due to how tobacco is prepared, rolled, or perhaps due to ‘suspected’ recipe changes (let alone subjective palate of the person sampling the smokes at particular points in time). But what about tobacco harvests? Just like grape harvests, is it possible that tobacco crops with same seed at same farm may produce tobacco with differing taste year on year due to all manner of environmental conditions (or even human impacting conditions such as fertilisation/ pesticides etc) ? I think so.

The wine industry being much larger and sophisticated, provides much analysis as to how good certain grape harvests are projected to be, and much tastings as the wine ages. No such luck with cigars, which is guesswork at best. Largely based on sharing of BOTL/SOTL community opinions on forums such as FOH.

So if asking what cigar is good for aging, and more specifically if you are looking to pick up an older box now for a specific+ special reason, then to give yourself the best possible chances, consider doing some research into (i) firstly narrowing down field to community opinion as to which marcas/vitolas are generally thought to age well (some great tips in this thread alone) AND which you find tasty (as there is no use aging a box where you find the taste doesn't agree with your palate); and (ii) finding community views (or smoke examples yourself where you possibly can) as to how that specific marca/vitola has been smoking for that specific boxcode year as well.

Like most things in life, the reward is often in the journey. Enjoy your further explorations with this hobby!

[NSXCIGAR]

On the subject of cigar expiration, while it's my personal opinion that most modern CCs generally peak at the 5-10 year mark I don't think that means that they are expired at year 11. I think most modern CCs have legs for a very long time. I don't think I'd really be interested in trying to age cigars for 25+ years but I think at 15-20 years old everything made today would still be quite smokeable. 25+ years is probably pushing it however.

I think it's instructive to look at the Davidoff Mille series that has expired by many accounts. Those cigars range in age from 40 to 25 years. The Mille blend was described as relatively mild at the time, but anything deemed mild then would be called fairly strong today. Keep in mind the Cohiba Siglo series replaced it, and I doubt anyone would describe that line as "mild" today.

[Fugu]

On 8/22/2016 at 2:10 PM, Dimmers said:

But what about tobacco harvests? Just like grape harvests, is it possible that tobacco crops with same seed at same farm may produce tobacco with differing taste year on year due to all manner of environmental conditions (or even human impacting conditions such as fertilisation/ pesticides etc) ? I think so.

Right, that's actually what is happening. But this is not exactly how it is working. Ligadores, together with the Catadores try to reproduce the "same" flavour profile for a given cigar year after year from different tobacco raw material. So you won't get the same cigar made from the same tobacco from the same farms, fields or parcels and lots anyway for different years. And that is actually not a new invention with the nationalization, it had been done that way already before the revolution, since most cigar companies didn't have their own farm land, but instead bought up tobacco from different vegas.

So, yes, there will be differences of course and that is something which might be worth considering as well if you are taking it serious, I agree. But the problem in practice - often, you'll only know at hindsight. What can be great fresh can be dull aged and vice versa. So, at the end of the day, it remains a crapshoot, as you say, an educated guess at best, whatever you do.

On 8/22/2016 at 2:10 PM, Dimmers said:

No such luck with cigars, which is guesswork at best. Largely based on sharing of BOTL/SOTL community opinions on forums such as FOH

Which I'd trust more than Bobbert Parker and the lot tbh, haha

 

On 8/22/2016 at 4:35 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

I think most modern CCs have legs for a very long time. I don't think I'd really be interested in trying to age cigars for 25+ years but I think at 15-20 years old everything made today would still be quite smokeable. 25+ years is probably pushing it however.

I think it's instructive to look at the Davidoff Mille series that has expired by many accounts. Those cigars range in age from 40 to 25 years.

But do not forget about provenance! Often it's less the cigar itself, but rather its whereabouts and the way it had been stored over all those years.

Buying a 20-y old stick is always a (big) risk. While I'd trust a box stored by myself for 20 years, I wouldn't do so in a box bought at auction. And as you are mentioning Davidoff - don't forget that humidor technology wasn't much popular at that time. Davidoff was one of its first proponents. It wasn't very uncommon that cigars had been simply stored dry on the shelves in the shops. Even if I had the coin, I'd be hard pressed to invest in a 30-year old box of Davidoff, unless I knew for sure it's provenance and that it hasn't been tossed around from auction to auction.

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, Fugu said:

But do not forget about provenance! Often it's less the cigar itself, but rather its whereabouts and the way it had been stored over all those years.

Buying a 20-y old stick is always a (big) risk. While I'd trust a box stored by myself for 20 years, I wouldn't do so in a box bought at auction. And as you are mentioning Davidoff - don't forget that humidor technology wasn't much popular at that time. Davidoff was one of its first proponents. It wasn't very uncommon that cigars had been simply stored dry on the shelves in the shops. Even if I had the coin, I'd be hard pressed to invest in a 30-year old box of Davidoff, unless I knew for sure it's provenance and that it hasn't been tossed around from auction to auction.

Absolutely, all bets are off when dealing with anything less than ideal storage conditions. I have consistently heard the negative assessment of the Mille series, and so I think it's fairly safe to eliminate poor storage conditions from the equation. Plenty of them have been stored adequately and the variance of opinion is pretty low on those.

Just the same, many cigars produced during that time are still receiving rave reviews. Many Dunhills still draw positive assessments, as do the Don Candidos and Alfredos. I think 20th century cigar aging was mostly case-by-case. Some performed very well long-term, some didn't. It's still going to be a long time before we're able to assess the long-term performance of a 2003 Des Dieux, for example. I suppose time will tell...

[Fugu]

5 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Absolutely, all bets are off when dealing with anything less than ideal storage conditions. I have consistently heard the negative assessment of the Mille series,

Yes, me too (can't comment from a personal experience, though), and some of the Chateaux as well. My comment was rather of general nature, adding to your initial statements and not particularly aiming at the Milles you mentioned.

[Dimmers]

Agree gents. And god knows whether anything post 90s will have legs anything like some of the older plant strains. An interesting discussion point for about a decade from now i guess.

[Fugu]

Yep - so let's set the alarm clocks and meet up again in 10 years! 

[Cubatabaco]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 3:04 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

Absolutely, all bets are off when dealing with anything less than ideal storage conditions. I have consistently heard the negative assessment of the Mille series, and so I think it's fairly safe to eliminate poor storage conditions from the equation. Plenty of them have been stored adequately and the variance of opinion is pretty low on those.

Just the same, many cigars produced during that time are still receiving rave reviews. Many Dunhills still draw positive assessments, as do the Don Candidos and Alfredos. I think 20th century cigar aging was mostly case-by-case. Some performed very well long-term, some didn't.

When it comes to aged cigars, even those from superb storage conditions, I have had cigars from the same box that vary in flavor and strength. One that recently comes to mind is a 60's Upmann Magnum. The first one was a dud, but the one sitting next to it was tremendous. The last Davidoff 4000 I had was very enjoyable. It was a great morning cigar. This past weekend revealed Dunhill Estupendo's still are holding strong. They are so creamy and complex. We could go on for days about which cigars still have legs and which ones have fallen flat.

I'm certainly enjoying this thread, so keep it up!

[Fugu]

I agree and am not at all disputing that there are differences in the aging potential of different cigars and vintages. Sure, but the difficulty I have with statements like

16 hours ago, Cubatabaco said:

even those from superb storage conditions

is, in how many cases will we really have a full record of storage conditions? The longer the period the more unlikely it will be. In a 50-yr old box, like said Magnums, they could have been stored perfect for the last 30 or even 40 years in a single collector's cellar. But if storage had been subpar just for the first decade, and they were gone, they will be gone, no matter how meticulous they have been treated afterwards. It's a case of a bottleneck situation. Like in frozen foods - you mustn't breach the cold chain.