Wineador and dull tasting cigars

[PigFish]

Also , would you suggest leaving the cooler turned off instead if running?

Temp would probably jump to around 23c - not that bad?

No mate your cigars are not ruined... Perhaps for smoking on the short term, if you have a preference for dry cigars. Tobacco is wet to process and it drys with time and the right conditions.

I don't think that Bovida packs are right for (wine)coolers. In any case, they should be used in situations that have very slow temperature movements. This is because the pack uses a aqueous salt solution. These salt solutions are very stable for rH. That is the good and also the bad of them. This means that if the temperature swings, or you have a potential for condensation such as in a temperature controlled cooler, they will constantly be trying to deliver a set rH. This will lead to drying the salt solution out and ultimately leaving you with a wet cooler.

While you are looking for stability, you have to consider the hysteresis of the water sources you use and the way they work in the real world, not just from an advertising cubicle at some corporate office.

Furthermore cigars don't store best with 'the same rH.' Yes, I did write that...! Tobacco, a hygroscopic material does not act like an aqueous salt solution. This means that cigars are best stored when they are treated like hygroscopic materials, NOT AQUEOUS SALT SOLUTIONS! The aqueous salt solution is looking to provide stable rH at a range of temperatures. The cigar is not to be stored that way...! The cigar that is stored at 65rH at 70dF is going to be in a different state at 65rH and 60dF and at 65rH and at 80dF. At 80dF it will likely be getting dry and at 60dF it will be wet. So much for the theory that rH is all that matters!!!

This is because tobacco has isosteric behavior that is unique to it and does not act like space, in fact it is opposite to it, and it is nothing like an aqueous salt solution.

If your box has more water in the system than will add up to your desired rH at a given temperature, you need to shed some of it. Take all the supplements out! Catch some of the water that drips off your condenser and see where the internal rH goes. Let it dry down to the 60's or high 50's by removing water and your cigars will start to lose their water to equalize the rH in the humidor. As the rH in the box goes up, and it will, it will be because the cigars are giving up water to the humidor environment. Continue to remove water until the system stabilizes in the range that you prefer.

That is called dehydration, and that is what you want...

Solid surface humidors don't need a lot of supplemental water. If you cannot run an active system and manage it, you should deactivate it, or learn how to work around the problems with passive systems in with active cooling.

Happy smoking! -Piggy

[jimsta10]

you should get a data logger and track the fluctuation in temp and rh. in some case if the temperature drops too low it can affect the smell. if you are using kitty litter that is scented it could also absorb the smell. using hf beads and boveda packs (in my opinion) is the best option.

and yes, leave it on and running (that's its purpose). in my opinion, you should let the wineador run for a couple of weeks, monitor it and if all is well put your boxes in.

good luck.

[Anth87]

Piggy - dry boxed a cigar for 2 days -smoking one now. You're correct they are WAY too wet - sponges as all hell - flavour in the is off too

I've turned off the thermo and shall just monitor the RH - is this the best course of action?

These smokes will be safe from Fire for at least a month ?

[phlee]

I've got a problem with wet cigars too...

How would I dry box if my ambient humidity is 80%+ and 30 degrees C?

Apologies if it's a stupid question.

[moryc]

I use only 65% heartfelt beads in my wineador, so its hard for me to say Boveda Packs work. My setup is as follows and I am attaching a photo for reference:

1. On the very top two 1/2 lb bags of beads. These are the only beads that I ever refill

2. Around the middle between the RASS box and the Petit Edmundos 1/2 lb bag of beads (not visible). I never refill this bag, its only for absorption of extra humidity.

3. On the bottom of the wineador at the back 1 lb bag of beads (not visible). I never refill this bag as well, its only for absorbtion of humidity. The drain hole at the bottom of my wineador is plugged and any condensation that flows from the cooling unit against the back wall gets captured by the 1lb bag on the bottom

This setup gives me 65% humidity at the top and it increases towards the bottom to approximately 69% at the bottom. It took me about two month of messing around with different setups, and I have been running this setup for approximately 10 months and it works for me. I am sure there are many different ways of doing this, this is just one of them and it works for me. My cigars are smoking great, and this is what it comes down to in the end

I think if you are not keeping your source of humidification near the top of the fridge, the cigars that are near the top might be stored below the desired rh.

Cigars aren't dry at all - I would tend to agree with pigfish however the smokes didn't have the usual wet issue ( wonky burn, relit, not much smoke, weird draw etc)

Took one out yesterday to dey box will smoke tonight - I also removed the beads (so bovedas don't wirk against them)

Moryc read your post Would you suggest moving bovedas to bottom of fridge? I'll try take a reading from a box see what happens
If indeed the cigars are too wet, wouldn't that mean they're ruined?

[PigFish]

I've got a problem with wet cigars too...

How would I dry box if my ambient humidity is 80%+ and 30 degrees C?

Apologies if it's a stupid question.

While I would have to research it, my guess is that 80rH and 30C is not exactly wet. We should not forget that we are talking of water vapor bonding to a substrate, in this case, tobacco. The higher the temperature the less water will bond to tobacco or any hygroscopic substrate.

While I don't smoke cigars stored in these conditions, it is possible that they are not far out of a smokable range. How do they smoke?

Folks, don't get stuck in the rH is all that matters mindset. Temperature is every bit as important to rH, they are a team. Offsetting rH with temperature is a viable option. The same goes with rH.

Equilibrium moisture content of tobacco is a curved line, not a single point on a chart of rH vs. temperature. Percent equilibrium moisture content is the desired goal. The goal is not rH nor temperature separately. The goal is finding a rH and temperature that you can maintain that will consistently deliver the percent moisture content that you like to smoke from. That is the answer, the whole answer. rH alone is not the answer. Temperature alone is not the answer. Percent moisture content as derived by process of equilibrium and a combination of temperature and rH is the correct formula...

Cheers! -Piggy

[phlee]

While I don't smoke cigars stored in these conditions, it is possible that they are not far out of a smokable range. How do they smoke?

Cheers! -Piggy

They smoke quite wet

[PigFish]

They smoke quite wet

Then that is the correct answer! Rhetorically, why in God's name would you ask about dry boxing? Dry boxing (IMHO) is a fad! Not that it has no value in certain circumstances, but why do it when you can simply store cigars properly and enjoy them without the ritual?

You said pretty much what I expected to hear and I am making a point of it for a lesson to others. PMC (your preferred goal) is not a point on a map! Like climate around the world there is more than one place like most that are habitable. You have a choice of places. The cigar has a range of temperature/rH combinations that equate to percent moisture content that is palatable. Frankly, who cares if it is 80rH and 30C verses 60rH and 70F? I don't... What matters is the PMC of the cigar and if it is within range... It is tested by taste, or a bunch of sophisticated equipment that most don't own and would not know what to do with it if they did!!!

Taste is what matters. Others' opinions matter very little when it comes to what 'you' like...

Thanks for sharing! Cheers... the Pig

[bergaler]

this thread is getting me stoked on my shelves that should be in by the end of the week.

there's a thread about it here - http://www.botl.org/threads/get-your-shelves-and-drawers-here.75090/ - if anyone else's interested in getting some made for their winadors. Will post pics when i get them in. Been waiting something like 6 months for these bad boys

[bhawkins]

John made two separate sets of shelves for two NewAir 281e.Everything was exceptionally great and well crafted.Very good communication. Ship time and packaging were great as promised.very,very happy with the quality of the craftsmanship.I have read about a lot of people "getting lost in the woods" with another guy. Give John a try, I think you will be extremely pleased.

[bcraig15]

If your going to leave the cooling system on... Calibrate your hygrometer, place 1 at upper and lower humidor, put in small fan...rh will vary in uncirculated top and bottom.

Also prior to circulation fan buy a $15 high low hygrometer / temp guage (24 hour memory) from amazon to see what's happening in 24 hour period. You may find significant fluctuations.

[nikesupremedunk]

Well, I guess everything was already answered. I ran into the exact same scenario when I first started smoking cigars. My wineador fan was always on because my ambient temp was 95 and I wanted the temp set at 65. I would never get a steady RH reading so I ended up over humidifying the crap out of my cigars.

Since then I've moved on to an air tight container which is similar to a cooler. I realized that once I freeze my cigars, I don't have to worry what temp my cigars are in. I made sure that the RH was 63-65 and now they smoke wonderfully. Unplug your unit and see what kind of RH reading you get. I'm willing to bet it's way too high. Remove all humidification devices and just let the sticks sit and they seem to be good now.

[Anth87]

In various discussions and advice given here it seems the issue is how to remove the moisture from the cigars without

A) growing mould

damaging cigars

Easier said than done! Ray is analysing situation for me, but I kind of get the feeling that the process can't be rushed

Removing beads and bovedas keeps rh at around 68 and with high temps don't want mold

Meaning I'll have to buy new smokes to smoke whilst these do their thing lol

[bergaler]

John made two separate sets of shelves for two NewAir 281e.Everything was exceptionally great and well crafted.Very good communication. Ship time and packaging were great as promised.very,very happy with the quality of the craftsmanship.I have read about a lot of people "getting lost in the woods" with another guy. Give John a try, I think you will be extremely pleased.

Even though i had to wait a significant amount of time for my shelves, John has been more than excellent about communicating to me the progress of my build. Highly recommend anyone looking for custom Spanish cedar wineador shelving look into his work. Although I like seeing my SLBs and display boxes etc I can't wait to get these shelves in. Not to mention I'll be able to fit probably 2x more cigars their now

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[wolfain]

Pics!

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[bergaler]

Here's my humi right now. Shelves are out on delivery right now so will have an after pic up after I get it all settled

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[planetary]

Question: if one is using a humidor to store boxes, why have shelves at all? Don't they detract from the amount of space available for storage?

[bergaler]

Finally got the shelves in and everything situated. My OCD always kicks in when I'm arranging sticks. Very happy the way everything turned out. Was thinking id be able to fit a couple more boxes in but it's already pretty full... Check it out. NCs up top down to the last drawer full of MC2s

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[BigWill]

I'm curious about the air circulation with those drawers, is there a if swing in rh/temp from top to bottom of the wineador? Do you have fans to help the air flow? Nice setup regardless.

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[bergaler]

I'm curious about the air circulation with those drawers, is there a if swing in rh/temp from top to bottom of the wineador? Do you have fans to help the air flow? Nice setup regardless.

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I've heard sometimes there's a little RH change from top to bottom but nothing too serious. There's a caliber 4R hygrometer on the bottom row with the MC2s and one on top. There's a bag of 'loaded' KL under the MC2s and a dry bag on the top. Before I got the shelves the KL kept the whole cooler spot on at 65 with minimal 'loading' of the KL. I'll check back in after a couple weeks with an update but I'm not foreseeing there being any problems. The fit and finish of these shelves is so well done, just like a nice bespoke suit

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[PigFish]

In various discussions and advice given here it seems the issue is how to remove the moisture from the cigars without

A) growing mould

damaging cigars

Easier said than done! Ray is analysing situation for me, but I kind of get the feeling that the process can't be rushed

Removing beads and bovedas keeps rh at around 68 and with high temps don't want mold

Meaning I'll have to buy new smokes to smoke whilst these do their thing lol

68 at high temps, you should not be vague with the temperature, will not give you mold. 68rH as you approach 80F is not going to mold anything! Tobacco bonds to water vapor. If there is sufficient energy to free water from that bond, no capillary water, no mold!

In studying mold growth in packaged food stuffs, mold requires capillary water, not molecular water vapor to grow...

Cheers! -Piggy

[wolfain]

I've heard sometimes there's a little RH change from top to bottom but nothing too serious. There's a caliber 4R hygrometer on the bottom row with the MC2s and one on top. There's a bag of 'loaded' KL under the MC2s and a dry bag on the top. Before I got the shelves the KL kept the whole cooler spot on at 65 with minimal 'loading' of the KL. I'll check back in after a couple weeks with an update but I'm not foreseeing there being any problems. The fit and finish of these shelves is so well done, just like a nice bespoke suit

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Looks great! Your wineador is kept powered on? How's your internal temp and RH most of the time?

May I ask what's your ambient temp , out of curiosity..

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[bergaler]

Thanks! Yes I keep it powered on. RH has been rock solid at 65 and temp is set to 66. Hygro says it's a little warmer but I'm not too worried about it. Shouldn't ever get over 70-75 and I keep my house no warmer than that at all times.

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[Elvis]

Question: if one is using a humidor to store boxes, why have shelves at all? Don't they detract from the amount of space available for storage?

In a large cabinet humidor, shelves only take up marginal space and facilitate organization, stock rotation and humidor Tetris. I also find that they allow for better air circulation. If removing the shelves would make a difference of squeezing in one more box, then an additional humidor or cooler conversion is probably a better answer.

[deejank]

all this discussion and reading what piggy said about the mutual relationship between rh and temp.... i think i'm going to keep my 150 ct desktop humidor, and my tupperware for cigar aging. i really wanted a wine cooler set up but i never knew it demanded so much tinkering and manual experimenting.

i am completely on board now though with the theory of finding the right "wetness level" that meets your tasting criteria. screw this RH always at 70% business, no wonder my cigars have been tasting off the more i ramp up the air con