Wineadoor issues

[joejack11]

Hi guys , so I recently for a temp controlled humidor 2.5cu feet . Maintains 58-66 degrees .

So the current issue I'm having is ,

It's set at 66 degrees and I have a cigar oasis humidifer . Set at 68%

I charged the foam with distilled water . And after 2 weeks it's now at 72-74% rh.

I'm aiming for 65-68% rh, so I found out my room was at 68rh so I kicked on the heater in my house and now my room is at 40rh after a few days . And my humidior is dropping rh soon as I open the door . After some searching online I came across some heartfelt 65rh beads which I ordered . And I plan to put out the foam in my cigar oasis and fill it with those beads .

Any ideas or suggestions on how I can maintain 65-68rh with a temp of 66 in my humidor ?

[PapaDisco]

Just an amateur guess here, but I suspect that what's happening is that when you open the door you let in ambient air which is warmer and requires more moisture to reach 68rH. The Cigar Oasis provides the needed humidity to 68rH, but at slightly warmer air (room temp? 70F?) and then as the (now closed) wineador chills down to 58F the humidity inside rises with nothing to absorb it but your cigars.

Perhaps a couple of big-ass bags of beads sitting on the interior shelves will do the trick? The Oasis is only going to add humidity, not reduce it, and you need a little something to deal with that incoming ambient air when you open the door. You could also line the thing with cedar to increase its ability to stabilize these short term fluctuations. a tighter temperature controller on your compressor would also narrow that 58-66F band and would help.

[PigFish]

Your rH is out of control because you have sealed free water into an (ostensibly) air tight environment.

You can use the Oasis as a desiccant humidifier but frankly, I would likely start with dry beads not preconditioned ones. It depends on how wet everything is in there now. You may not have a choice.

The only way this will work is if there is a balance kept between cooling (and subsequent dehydration) and hydration. Meaning... You must keep the cooler cycling all the time and you must gander up all the condensate and remove it to closed space or back into the beads (as long as it does not pool in the beads).

Without trying to hurt your feelings, you system here will never really control anything with any sense of stability. If you are happy with the cigars that come from it, my opinion of working is of little consequence.

If you want a further understanding of what will happen in your humidor I will try to briefly describe it to you.

Upon the initiation of the cooling cycle and as soon as you move "wet" air over the cooling coil it will begin to dehydrate. How much it dehydrates will depend on the activation logic and differential logic of your controller as well as the outside temperature. If your controller is typical it will be looking for a 2˚ swing from the low point (activation logic number) to the off point (differential logic number).

Depending on the ambient temperature, and you won't know what this is really going to do until it is summer time, it may take a few minutes, to 10 to 15 minutes to cool the enclosure the 2˚... During that time, your cooler will get dry as a bone. Don't be surprised if the rH inside actually moves down to the 30's (rH) with it in the teens by the evap. coil (cooling coil).

As soon as your Oasis figures this out it will turn on. It has a similar activation logic parameter, no doubt, and it will run on well past the time that cooler stops. Beads on the other hand (verses liquid water) are not as reactive as free (liquid) water. You will dry the outer pours rather quickly and the rest will simply take its time to get into your system. Since preconditioned beads may only contain about 30% water (by weight) there may not be enough water in the beads to do the job... The system may never work without free water... The only way to tell is to find out by testing it at different ambient temperatures with a data logger.

If the system cooling recycles while the humidifier is still on, you will know that the desiccant humidification design is inadaquate. This system will therefore only remain in balance as long as the temperature outside in the ambient is kept right at a point where the cooler will cycle for a brief time in order to cool and therefore dehydrate to a very limited extent. Once thawed the coil will dump the water into the beads and put the water back into the system over time. This is the theory anyway... No one has ever posted a data log on this site to prove it... Not one that I have seen anyway!

This does not define a stable environment nor really a controlled one. I am sure there are a few who will take exception with my conclusion, but after designing and testing these types of systems for many years, I understand what they do and why they work, and therefore I also have a keen idea when they won't work!

This will likely be read as extremely negative and that is not my intention. I am not in any way deriding your project nor trying to discourage you. What I am trying to do, is to convince you that you should test your system without a substantial investment of cigars in it, lest you risk your investment.

Best of luck on your project. -Piggy

[joejack11]

Piggy .

Thank you for your honest opinion .

I agree with everything you say .

I'm a hvacr tech . So I'm aware of temp and humidity relations .

It's a thermoelectric system . I've been thinking about installed a Johnson's temp control to kick on at 71 and drop to 67 with a anti short cycle safety . But about your statement .

Yes I got the case to 73 and it pulled down from 73 to 66 in about 1 minute , along with dropping humidity . I do have a temp humidity data logger as well that I never even used . So I will try that and upload results if you are curious to see . So currently I got it stable at 68f and 68rh after I removed all the humidity in my room .

And yes this wineadoor is rated for a ambient of 75-85f

And I'm thinking about re routing my condensate like from evap cool back into my cigar oasis beads . Any thoughts ?

[joejack11]

Oh and for what it's worth I have 5 hygrometers one for every shelf to get a idea

[PigFish]

Piggy .

Thank you for your honest opinion .

I agree with everything you say .

I'm a hvacr tech . So I'm aware of temp and humidity relations .

It's a thermoelectric system . I've been thinking about installed a Johnson's temp control to kick on at 71 and drop to 67 with a anti short cycle safety . But about your statement .

Yes I got the case to 73 and it pulled down from 73 to 66 in about 1 minute , along with dropping humidity . I do have a temp humidity data logger as well that I never even used . So I will try that and upload results if you are curious to see . So currently I got it stable at 68f and 68rh after I removed all the humidity in my room .

And yes this wineadoor is rated for a ambient of 75-85f

And I'm thinking about re routing my condensate like from evap cool back into my cigar oasis beads . Any thoughts ?

Seeing you have some knowledge on the topic we can talk the same language.

You should data log and I would like to see the results.

2cuft. is a small space so I can see it moving rapidly, BUT what is the ambient in the room? You will need to test the humidor in all seasons or it should not be considered a success.

I have no experience with the Johnson controls, I have a controller made for me. My friend David likes them (Skyfall), he uses them in humidor designs and is quite pleased with them. Again, I prefer a commensurate solution and use a parametric logic controller.

The anti-short cycle timer is great for people like me, I use a refrigerant based cooling system, but with the TE you don't need it and frankly it will work against the one aspect of TE cooling that is advantageous (as I see it) and that is there is no need to, and probably a disadvantage to stopping them from short cycling. TE coolers are a completely different world, but you likely know that!

Now on to some design.

If you can do it with the Johnson control, forget the 4˚ set point differential... That is a bad idea! You should be thinking 0.1-0.3 (just for starters) in differential logic and let the system short cycle the cooler. Why? Because this will largely eliminate your rapid drop in rH issue and stabilize your system. This is what I do, but I depend on a compressor based system and sound design to do it (empirically tested). This allows me to plan the cooling overshoot, control it and work with it. During hot months, my system run maybe 3 to 5 minutes. I have tested my systems (some of them) up to about 95˚F. I use the residual cooling (overshoot) that I get from the evap. coil to offset a lot of incoming heat working ahead of the next cycle. With fast acting controls, my humidifier, and yes I do use free water in my sealed systems, may cycle 5 or 6 times to rapidly reduce the rH differential due to cooling.

You probably have some access to some good controls. And since this is likely a learning project for you I would suggest that you look for something better than the Johnson control and pic up some type of parametric controller from one of your vendors. With parametric controls you can work in a dehydration cycle and actually place a humidifier back in your project and forget the bead based system altogether. If you can control the logic, you can work the precision down to a fine number, and that is the ultimate goal.

Toss the Oasis, or use the case and fan, bypass the logic, and wet down your bead based humidifier or go back to straight water.

Me, I am working on heating this time of year. A fully controlled humidor should control your humidor from 4 directions. A consummate humidor controls high and low heat, as well as high and low rH. You too can do it if you have the patience and are willing to do the work!

Here are a few data logs of the lab yesterday. I am looking to see where my heating breaks down and runs 100% duty cycle. It is pretty clear to see at what temperature I will require a larger heater. I am going to sell this humidor so all that really matters to me is that I determine the operations range, not that I make it work within the Arctic Circle.

Looking at the performance of the humidor in general, you can see that the presence of free water means that you must introduce a dehydration cycle. This is some of what I am known for. I pride myself in being able to provide solutions for those in climates where they are battling high rH as well as heat. A consummate solution is better for cigars and allows one to save energy in their homes (so they can spend it on cigars).

Moving the data around, I find what I will deem the crossover to define the threshold.

I put a marker on the chart and it looks like I can maintain 69˚F with an ambient as low as 57 to 57.5˚F in this humidor without going with a higher output heater.

So if this is what you are after, you need to look at good controls and sensors, have a sound design and some patience to work out your problems.

If I can be of assistance, you can post it here and I will be happy to help as long as I have the time.

Happy New Year! -Ray

[PigFish]

...Oh, and yes... If you do not capture the condensate and recycle it, you will have a never ending maintenance plan of emptying the condensate tank and refilling the humidifier. -P