Wallabies squad for Lions tour

[Ken Gargett]

cooper has one of the best long passing games in world rugby, but not the best at putting short-ball runners into gaps, i say give him an outside centre like mortlock or better a fullback like cullen who hit gaps at speed

on this one, we disagree - go figure? seriously, do you watch much of cooper? i know that forums can lose attempted irony or sarcasm but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

"no 1st5 is immune to a charge down, but two within minutes? surely you'd adjust and step back or pay attention? the 2nd one hit a player who wasn't looking / didn't even have his arms up."

on this one, we are closer. that second one was inexplicable. and appalling. he does get charged down a fair bit. carter, mclean, it happens to them all. but cooper just a bit much.

mate had lunch with mckenzie recently. was apparently saying that cooper was the quickest in reactions he'd seen. it is why he stands a lot closer to the defence than most, say barnes, who needs the extra split second. cooper doesn't, but that can mean the stuff up like that second one. he also said that cooper got the ball onto his boot quicker than anyone (which should help stop this, you'd think) and we've seen perfect examples of this in both the last two weeks. mckenzie feels the problem is more getting other players on board with cooper and the way he plays. you wouldn't if he were say a winger, but as fly half, you need it. i wonder whether deans simply thinks he can't manage to do that or if he doesn't think he can pick players who can do that. with all due respect to faingaa, and i hate bagging a player - especially a red - who tries his heart out, he is simply too slow in every respect.

[ARRV]

on this one, we disagree - go figure? seriously, do you watch much of cooper? i know that forums can lose attempted irony or sarcasm but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

"no 1st5 is immune to a charge down, but two within minutes? surely you'd adjust and step back or pay attention? the 2nd one hit a player who wasn't looking / didn't even have his arms up."

on this one, we are closer. that second one was inexplicable. and appalling. he does get charged down a fair bit. carter, mclean, it happens to them all. but cooper just a bit much.

mate had lunch with mckenzie recently. was apparently saying that cooper was the quickest in reactions he'd seen. it is why he stands a lot closer to the defence than most, say barnes, who needs the extra split second. cooper doesn't, but that can mean the stuff up like that second one. he also said that cooper got the ball onto his boot quicker than anyone (which should help stop this, you'd think) and we've seen perfect examples of this in both the last two weeks. mckenzie feels the problem is more getting other players on board with cooper and the way he plays. you wouldn't if he were say a winger, but as fly half, you need it. i wonder whether deans simply thinks he can't manage to do that or if he doesn't think he can pick players who can do that. with all due respect to faingaa, and i hate bagging a player - especially a red - who tries his heart out, he is simply too slow in every respect.

Deans has a my way or the highway attitude.

Which is great.

When you are winning over 85% of games, have won the bledisoe, then retained the bledisoe, have retained the 3 nations and have won the world cup.

If you haven't managed any of this then time to start the car up and get driving.

[mazolaman]

So after the first dull match, we're wondering if Australia is bothered about the Lions tour.

Second string team sent out etc..probs just bad timing.

[Ken Gargett]

deans insisted that all wallaby squad members be unavailable. i think that is shameful. it is the sort of thing that will destroy future tours. the force have a game this weekend, in four days, so why exhaust your players? very wrong. but given the best players are out, coaches know that they have bugger all chance and so why risk the next level. play second raters and if an injury, who cares.

personally, i reckon a full strength reds team would have more chance of knocking off the lions than deans' wallabies - we have done it before. but we'll never know. i am sure that part of the reason for deans' insistence is that if there was a win by a state side, it might be a touch embarrassing when his wallabies fail.

if i was involved with the lions, i'd be insisting that any future tours proceed only on the basis of playing fuill strength sides. unfair to the lions, unfair to local players, unfair to fans, for anything else.

[El Presidente]

So after the first dull match, we're wondering if Australia is bothered about the Lions tour.

Second string team sent out etc..probs just bad timing.

ken is right mate....Deans is the culprit for removing Wallabies from the warm up matches.

Qld Reds this weekend will be a better hit out but you should still get up by 25.

[mazolaman]

I don't think the Lions have ever had to put up any stipulations regarding the tour before, as every country has been up for it.

It would be a shame if they had to. Countries can make plenty money from a Lions tour.

I wasn't aware of Deans command that no Wallabies play in the state games...

Sounds like you guys need shot of him.

[dicko]

What did everyone think of the reds game tonight? I reckon quade cooper was good apart from a couple of clangers. Asked questions of the lions though. Line out and scrum killed the reds who were still close score wise.

It was ridiculous seeing the reds wallabies on the sideline perfectly fit. All those boys should have been out there smashing the poms around.

[OZCUBAN]

Didn't catch the game was it a good one ?,cant be worse than the farce sorry ,Force.

[Ken Gargett]

the game was a cracker, if a little bizarre. granted presumably not the exact lions team that will start but had the qld lineout not been the worst in history (did we really lose more of our own throws than we won?) and had we not been quite so avant garde!! i thought a great effort by the reds seconds - thanks largely to our moronic wallaby coach, we were missing genia, horwill, sautia, digby, gill, simmons, slipper, saia faingaa etc etc. a full reds team and hard to see us not winning well.

tough game - some lions injuries - i think bowe might be out for the tour. and also reds - robinson knocked cold - for a long time - and holmes 30 stitches to his head and daley a broken foot and lucas needing to have his ear reattached. but not a dirty game.

and now, the bloke who punched his teammates, walked out on his team, has repeatedly broken his alcohol prohibitions and played only one game for a reserve grade club side in the last couple of months is considered a better choice than cooper. deans is a moronic disgrace. and then poor cooper goes to the pub with friends yesterday and gets attacked by another moron who threw beer at him and abused him. apparently he was minding his business with friends and didn’t respond. he can’t win.

the most interesting upshot of the game is that for me, and this seems to be a reasonably widespread view, mckenzie has done deans a huge favour by showing him how to beat the lions. the sad fact is that despite that, deans simply is too inept as a coach to take advantage of that.

[ZinZan]

I thought the reds played really well but should have been a bit more disciplined with the penalties and defence. And i admire their adventurous spirit to have go in their own try line but when you doing it every time, it becomes a bit predictable. All in all and entertaining game, the reds really gave the lions a good fight, it could'v easily been a different scoreline. Cooper reminds of me Carlos Spencer, you never know whats he's gonna do.

[frenchkiwi]

Didn't catch the game was it a good one ?,cant be worse than the farce sorry ,Force.

Was a good game slightly marred by poor handling due to smirry rain.

The Reds minus the wallabies played pretty well, apart from a strategy that saw them try to run it all the time out of their own 22, became predictable and they were lucky to escape paying a higher price for it when they dropped the ball. Mind you that young fella Hogg is lethal at running it back, very un-scottish fullback play. If the Lions selected on form he might be in the starting XV.

The lions knocked it on plenty but my take home point was that this was another random XV (and in many places more of a B-team XV) and they did the basics well, particularly the forwards. Owned the setpieces thanks to outstanding individuals, guys who tend to do the little things right. Man for man, do the wallabies currently have the forwards to even compete? (Especially minus Pocock and Higginbotham). Looking ominous for test rugby.

[michaelhealy]

Was a good game slightly marred by poor handling due to smirry rain.

The Reds minus the wallabies played pretty well, apart from a strategy that saw them try to run it all the time out of their own 22, became predictable and they were lucky to escape paying a higher price for it when they dropped the ball. Mind you that young fella Hogg is lethal at running it back, very un-scottish fullback play. If the Lions selected on form he might be in the starting XV.

The lions knocked it on plenty but my take home point was that this was another random XV (and in many places more of a B-team XV) and they did the basics well, particularly the forwards. Owned the setpieces thanks to outstanding individuals, guys who tend to do the little things right. Man for man, do the wallabies currently have the forwards to even compete? (Especially minus Pocock and Higginbotham). Looking ominous for test rugby.

I disagree with Hogg. Yes he had a cracker of a game, but Halfpenny has that 15 spot sewn up. Deans will play a boring hit it up style game and the Wallabies will get rolled. They need to play an expansive game. Not necessarily running out of their 22, but play wide and get the ball past our 12. I dont think we have the front row to compete at scrum time. My prediction is game 1 loss 35-19, game 2 win 19-15, game 3 loss 24-10 and Deans finally on the next flight back to...... Who cares as long as McKenzie is Wallaby coach. Otherwise Australia wont make it past the group stage at RWC 2015

[michaelhealy]

ken is right mate....Deans is the culprit for removing Wallabies from the warm up matches.

So we are going to have some players without a decent hit out for 3 weeks leading up the 1st test while the Lions have the Reds game under their belt. Another great decision. Last time a non Aussie coaches the Wallabies i think. Does anyone even remember what the Bledisloe Cup looks like?

[Ken Gargett]

So we are going to have some players without a decent hit out for 3 weeks leading up the 1st test while the Lions have the Reds game under their belt. Another great decision. Last time a non Aussie coaches the Wallabies i think. Does anyone even remember what the Bledisloe Cup looks like?

i have been howling against this madness for months. told the qru (not that there was ever the slightest chance of them listening to me) that if the aru was so dim-witted as to back this idiot coach we have re this that the reds should play an under 17 side or a 4ths or whatever - not risk injuries to a reds team (which has now happened) in contention for the finals. make their stupidity all the more obvious - i loved the game the other night but so frustrating as on the evidence of that, the reds at full strength would have had an extremely good chance of beating the lions again.

effectively, almost all wallabies will not have played a serious rugby game in 3-4 weeks by the time the test gets here. but the lions will be battle hardened.

everything this incompetent tosser does seems more and more insane.

i see we can welcome mccabe into the squad. we can just hand the trophy over now.

i was told on saturday that deans was contracted until after the northern tour. i thought it was up at the end of the lions series. anyone know for sure?

no divinity, real or imagined, could save us if he is still here for the 4 nations and the tour.

[michaelhealy]

End of the northern tour Ken.

[michaelhealy]

Lets hope no one (i mean Scotland) snap up the chance at MacKenzie.

[Ken Gargett]

"That this will not happen is a true shame for fans but brilliant news for the Lions"

the speaker was talking about no cooper. he also said it was a decision that "beggar's belief".

those are the thoughts from clive woodward, who might know a thing or two about having a reasonable fly half in your team.

and the lions defence coach has also expressed relief.

what else can you say?

[frenchkiwi]

It was ridiculous seeing the reds wallabies on the sideline perfectly fit. All those boys should have been out there smashing the poms around.

it's always the same nowadays. none of Larkham Gregan Roff Smith played the lions for the brumbies back in 2001 (who only just lost on the bell), no john eales, latham or tune for the reds. No all blacks in the provinces for 2005 lions tour (incidentally no all blacks in the Blues for tonight's game against france, either).

i suppose when you see all the guys being stretchered off on the weekend the risk/reward scenario comes to mind. you want to win the test series and not lose your players beforehand, and its the non-test players job to go hard and soften them up. kinda like prepping the pitch to suit the home side in cricket. the club games have generally been against "midweek" B sides from the touring party anyway.

a pity it comes at a cost to provincial pride but that's already been half sold off with the "franchise" model and marquee players being bought and sold and traded like collectable cards.

Anyway here's a random but funny excerpt from the NZ list of great victories by clubs over countries, another way to soften up touring sides???

South Canterbury 17 France 14, Fraser Park, August 15, 1961

The French thuggery reached a tipping point when South Canterbury's second five-eighth Eddie Smith made a run the touchline. He was stopped by a punch from Frenchman Michel Crauste who followed that up by picking Smith up and dropping him on the turf. His actions led to 56-year-old Hilda Madsen charging onto the field, striking Crauste with her walking stick.

Despite outscoring South Canterbury four tries to two, the French suffered their sixth defeat of the tour and probably their most infamous.

[Ken Gargett]

it's always the same nowadays. none of Larkham Gregan Roff Smith played the lions for the brumbies back in 2001 (who only just lost on the bell), no john eales, latham or tune for the reds. No all blacks in the provinces for 2005 lions tour (incidentally no all blacks in the Blues for tonight's game against france, either).

i suppose when you see all the guys being stretchered off on the weekend the risk/reward scenario comes to mind. you want to win the test series and not lose your players beforehand, and its the non-test players job to go hard and soften them up. kinda like prepping the pitch to suit the home side in cricket. the club games have generally been against "midweek" B sides from the touring party anyway.

a pity it comes at a cost to provincial pride but that's already been half sold off with the "franchise" model and marquee players being bought and sold and traded like collectable cards.

Anyway here's a random but funny excerpt from the NZ list of great victories by clubs over countries, another way to soften up touring sides???

South Canterbury 17 France 14, Fraser Park, August 15, 1961

The French thuggery reached a tipping point when South Canterbury's second five-eighth Eddie Smith made a run the touchline. He was stopped by a punch from Frenchman Michel Crauste who followed that up by picking Smith up and dropping him on the turf. His actions led to 56-year-old Hilda Madsen charging onto the field, striking Crauste with her walking stick.

Despite outscoring South Canterbury four tries to two, the French suffered their sixth defeat of the tour and probably their most infamous.

certainly wasn't a policy for the wallabies back in 2001. not that it saved the reds from a thrashing that tour. eales was injured for most of the season in the run up to the lions tests and had hardly played at all. tune did play against the lions in the run up but it was a presidents game from memory, not the reds. and he was not selected for any of the tests so not that relevant (or possibly injured? have a feeling he didn't play for the reds as injured and returning and didn't make it back or not selected). not sure about latham but he may have also been carrying injuries.

but stiles, panaho, cockbain, kefu. flatley, dan herbert, sharpe etc all played for the reds v the lions and then backed up in the tests - or some of the tests. so definitely not the same sort of policy.

also connors, foley, i think but not so sure of them. connors may not have played tests that year.

interesting that the crowd at the previous reds/lions game was 18,000. this time over 50,000.

but agree re the provincial games v touring sides. especially when both sides take it seriously. in the old days, a lot of touring sides treated the reds game as the fourth test.

two of the greatest games i've ever seen were the reds v wales in 78 when wales just pipped us. sensational game. and not a bad result against the five nations champions. especially since a photo in the paper the next day, long before videos, showed jpr williams (i think, from memory) taking out the corner post before grounding the winning try. i also remember wales scoring from their prop charging down a paul mclean clearing kick.

and even better, beating a full strength all blacks in 1980. 9-3. no tries but a brilliant game and a gould field goal from a kick he took on the sideline, on the 10 yard line on the other side of half way. two or three steps and bang. and it cleared the posts by a good 15 feet. never seen anything like it again.

[Ken Gargett]

before anyone jumps on the idiotic comments of bob dwyer about the lions being cheats, can we just clarify that this is a bloke who is terribly desperate for any form of relevance, who was such an absurd ella sycophant that he would have licked crap from his boots (whose career was saved by sam scott-young and also slatts with massive games against the all blacks - 3rd test i think - when he was about to be dumped, and didn't he reward them for it!@@@!).

it goes to show that deans is not the first gibbering drooling idiot coaching the wallabies (in fact, we have a long line of them - smith, eddie...).

and if all the world are indeed cheats except us, thanks bob, then perhaps instead of bleating about it, we should be combating it or working out how best to take advantage ourselves.

[Pilgrims]

Brilliant to hear that from an Aussie, I think his comments were all a bit hopeless really...can't wait for the tests now, the Lions one difficulty is that actually they almost have too much competition for places, they need to pick a good team not necessarily the best players in each shirt...I'm glad I don't have to select the side...

The weather could well come into it especially with regard to the centres and the back row...

[Ken Gargett]

interesting that, even with some of their wallabies allowed to return to nsw (yet deans would not allow that for the reds and mckenzie), it is the second string reds under the attack of cooper and coaching of mckenzie who are the only team to get within cooee of the lions.

no pressure, deans, no pressure!!

[mazolaman]

interesting that, even with some of their wallabies allowed to return to nsw (yet deans would not allow that for the reds and mckenzie), it is the second string reds under the attack of cooper and coaching of mckenzie who are the only team to get within cooee of the lions.

no pressure, deans, no pressure!!

Yep, it's funny how things work out.

Deans has applied more preassure on himself and team by not allowing them to play in the warm ups.

I'm not too keen on Gatlan's plans either, I think he has picked the wrong teams at the wrong times.

Pleased to see England do well in Argentina..no love lost there! But sad to see it is all second stringers. Good in the sense that new guys come through, but sad to think many internationals are now not considered so important.

As with the cricket, too many matches?

[Ken Gargett]

Yep, it's funny how things work out.

Deans has applied more preassure on himself and team by not allowing them to play in the warm ups.

I'm not too keen on Gatlan's plans either, I think he has picked the wrong teams at the wrong times.

Pleased to see England do well in Argentina..no love lost there! But sad to see it is all second stringers. Good in the sense that new guys come through, but sad to think many internationals are now not considered so important.

As with the cricket, too many matches?

completely agree.

far far too many games. miss one today, you can watch something tomorrow.

if i were the home nations, i'd be calling them 'A' tours or whatever. not make them full internationals. devalues the real thing.

[frenchkiwi]

I'm not too keen on Gatlan's plans either, I think he has picked the wrong teams at the wrong times.

Pleased to see England do well in Argentina..no love lost there! But sad to see it is all second stringers. Good in the sense that new guys come through, but sad to think many internationals are now not considered so important.

I suppose gatlands wanted to see all of his players in action and then pick. put the pressure on so that they perform. tried out a few combinations too but i would've been tempted to put that quasi-1st XV on the pitch at least one extra time before the tahs game. One extra game together before the first test... and if Roberts is out they have no specialist 2nd5 which will complicate matters.Davies looked lost at 12 in the game he played there.

tahs played ok considering their lineup. they had a good crack at them which is always good.

Argentina is the same old story as pacific islands, european clubs won't release top players for many games, end up with amateurs from Arg clubs. It's a blight on the game