alxs25 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Hi all, Was having a question ever since I' ve started smoking cigars and never came around with a good answer. I am sure all you cigar boffins will be able to sort it out for me. In terms of flavour there is a general guideline of light medium and full flavour cigars. So for example a Ramon Allones, Bolivar is considered full while a Punch or a Trinidad is on the medium scale and a Hoyo on the light side. As a new smoker I have tried various cigars and have found some to be overwhelming for my palette. I am guessing it has to do with the nicotine content which I find hard to associate with the cigar flavour. For example one of my favourite cigars if not my favourite is the RASS, I smoke them all to the nub and love them, on the other hand a Bolivar Royal corona will get me buzzing and "tired" after the second third and usually stop smoking it . So I was wondering is there is something I need to look for when it comes to selecting the cigar in terms of strength? Its obvious to me that I enjoy cigars that dont have big amounts of nicotine (I am not a cigarette smoker). Thanks for your time Alex
CaptainQuintero Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 You need to favourite Trevor's amazing website first! strength/flavour/body I found leaving the stronger brands later until I had tried out the medium and mild ones worked well for me but some people did the opposite A full stomach is always a good idea until your body gets used to the strength
alxs25 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 You need to favourite Trevor's amazing website first! strength/flavour/body I found leaving the stronger brands later until I had tried out the medium and mild ones worked well for me but some people did the opposite A full stomach is always a good idea until your body gets used to the strength A full stomach is always the rule for me as I mostly enjoy my cigars after a nice meal.That was my thinking as well, but although I tend to follow that general rule I have found that some cigars, despite being in the full strength level, like the RASS are easier on my palette even when compared with a theoretically medium like for example a Punch. It could be down to me and only me, but I was wondering whether within the same marca you can find variations in term of strength and nicotine levels. (?) I know that Habanos ratings encompasses flavour, body, and strength using a single term and was more thinking if there is a scaling solely upon strength. I have only came across a strength chart, which according to my experience seems reasonable. many thanks for your time
Colt45 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 It may be that as you smoke more, you will become more accustomed to various cigars. The first thing that comes to mind for me though is that you might not care as much for cigars that are somewhat tannic in nature. For me, Bolivar, generally speaking, are fairly tannic. Just one thought.
jedipastor Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 The following info is my own way to categorize things. It makes sense to me, but I'm far from an expert! Flavor: Simply, this is how much flavor is discernible in the cigar. A cigar can be light in strength but have tons of flavor--Cubans are some of the best examples of this, like an aged LGC MdO. Strength: Simply, this is how heavy the nicotine impact of the cigar is on your system. Some people (like myself) have a very high tolerance, others very low. For most people, the longer and more often they smoke, their tolerance for Vitamin N increases. But some guys smoke regularly for 20 years and just can't handle full-strength cigars (or maybe they can handle it, but just don't like the effects). Body is, for lack of a better description, how the smoke impacts your palate. This is often directly linked to how peppery/spicy a cigar is, but not always. Although I think body is connected to the strength of the nicotine content, t's possible for a cigar to be quite strong in terms of body, but not all that strong in terms of strength. For example Cubans like the RASS and H. Upmann Mag 46 are medium-full in body, but definitely full in flavor, whereas the strength is around medium usually. Also, a lot of young cigars can come off as "harsh" because the body is much stronger than the flavor or strength. A lot of "strong" NCs have a lot of strength and body, but not a ton in the flavor department (not a fan of that mix myself). When a cigar is in "balance," it will have flavor, body, and strength working in harmony. That's not to say they have to be at the same level, though. Complexity: A cigar is complex when you can detect multiple flavors at once. This is a culinary term, people use it for food, wine, spirits, etc. In cigars, it sometimes means that one puff will have a certain flavor more strongly than the next, etc. Many Cubans are rather complex, and many NCs are as well (the Opus X is a great example). Dynamism: This is my own term to refer to how a cigars flavors change over the course of the smoking experience. TIME is the main factor here. You can have a cigar that's not very complex, but does change over the course of the smoke in terms of flavor. I hear many cigar reviewers mistakenly using the term "complexity" to describe this phenomenon, but that's incorrect. Complexity is a separate term that already exists, and while it applies to cigars too, it's not the same as dynamism/flavor evolution. Complexity means lots of different flavors, and while it can mean the flavors change from one puff to the next in a cigar, it doesn't describe what happens when a cigar is truly dynamic. The fact that a cigar can change over time as you smoke it is a UNIQUE PHENOMENON WITH CIGARS, and I think we need to come up with a term to describe this awesome experience! So, when you say that some cigars seem to "overwhelm your palate," it sounds like you're talking about body. If a cigar has too much body for you to handle at any given time, you won't get the right flavor out of it. Instead, the cigar will taste kind of muddy or just unbalanced to you. This is why many people smoke lighter cigars earlier in the day, and stronger cigars in the evenings when their palates have been "broken in" with food all day, etc. A cigar with a lot of body will often lit you in the throat rather than just the mouth. IF the main effect you're experiencing is on your palate, then body is probably the issue. If the problems you're having is a lump in your throat, light-headedness, or nausea, then strength is the problem. Or, it could simply be that the cigars you didn't like were full-flavored and you simply didn't like the flavors at all! It is very common for cigars with in a marca to differ in all of the factors above. For example, a Bolivar Royal Corona is medium-bodied and medium-strength, whereas the Petite Corona is medium-full in both categories, and the Corona Extra is more like full. But all of them are full-flavored, and most are pretty complex and fairly dynamic.
KaleKnowles Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 You need to favourite Trevor's amazing website first! strength/flavour/body I found leaving the stronger brands later until I had tried out the medium and mild ones worked well for me but some people did the opposite A full stomach is always a good idea until your body gets used to the strength Thanks for posting Trevor's website. I am fairly new to CC so that is an awesome reference!
CaptainQuintero Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 You can get big changes in terms of body flavour and strength in brands, for example RYJ Cazador is very strong while say the short churchill is quite mild for me. With partagas, the 898 is strong while the Lusitania is quite mild for me. Punch always overwhelms my palete, usually with flavours of ash and soot! No ideawhat is going on with them nowadays. A good idea could be getting two or three of the most popular cigars from each brand and see how you like them eg Partagas 898, partagas shorts RYJ Cazador, RYJ Short Churchill Montecristo especial #2. Montecristo Edmundo Bolivar gold medal, Bolivar PC, Bolivar Royal Corona Upmann mag 46, Upmann Connie #1, Upmann Sir Winnie Hoyo epicure #1, Hoyo epicure #2, Hoyo Petit robusto SLR Serie A, SLR Regio etc etc Nice to see another Brit by the way!
Rushman Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 The following info is my own way to categorize things. It makes sense to me, but I'm far from an expert! Flavor: Simply, this is how much flavor is discernible in the cigar. A cigar can be light in strength but have tons of flavor--Cubans are some of the best examples of this, like an aged LGC MdO. Strength: Simply, this is how heavy the nicotine impact of the cigar is on your system. Some people (like myself) have a very high tolerance, others very low. For most people, the longer and more often they smoke, their tolerance for Vitamin N increases. But some guys smoke regularly for 20 years and just can't handle full-strength cigars (or maybe they can handle it, but just don't like the effects). Body is, for lack of a better description, how the smoke impacts your palate. This is often directly linked to how peppery/spicy a cigar is, but not always. Although I think body is connected to the strength of the nicotine content, t's possible for a cigar to be quite strong in terms of body, but not all that strong in terms of strength. For example Cubans like the RASS and H. Upmann Mag 46 are medium-full in body, but definitely full in flavor, whereas the strength is around medium usually. Also, a lot of young cigars can come off as "harsh" because the body is much stronger than the flavor or strength. A lot of "strong" NCs have a lot of strength and body, but not a ton in the flavor department (not a fan of that mix myself). When a cigar is in "balance," it will have flavor, body, and strength working in harmony. That's not to say they have to be at the same level, though. Complexity: A cigar is complex when you can detect multiple flavors at once. This is a culinary term, people use it for food, wine, spirits, etc. In cigars, it sometimes means that one puff will have a certain flavor more strongly than the next, etc. Many Cubans are rather complex, and many NCs are as well (the Opus X is a great example). Dynamism: This is my own term to refer to how a cigars flavors change over the course of the smoking experience. TIME is the main factor here. You can have a cigar that's not very complex, but does change over the course of the smoke in terms of flavor. I hear many cigar reviewers mistakenly using the term "complexity" to describe this phenomenon, but that's incorrect. Complexity is a separate term that already exists, and while it applies to cigars too, it's not the same as dynamism/flavor evolution. Complexity means lots of different flavors, and while it can mean the flavors change from one puff to the next in a cigar, it doesn't describe what happens when a cigar is truly dynamic. The fact that a cigar can change over time as you smoke it is a UNIQUE PHENOMENON WITH CIGARS, and I think we need to come up with a term to describe this awesome experience! So, when you say that some cigars seem to "overwhelm your palate," it sounds like you're talking about body. If a cigar has too much body for you to handle at any given time, you won't get the right flavor out of it. Instead, the cigar will taste kind of muddy or just unbalanced to you. This is why many people smoke lighter cigars earlier in the day, and stronger cigars in the evenings when their palates have been "broken in" with food all day, etc. A cigar with a lot of body will often lit you in the throat rather than just the mouth. IF the main effect you're experiencing is on your palate, then body is probably the issue. If the problems you're having is a lump in your throat, light-headedness, or nausea, then strength is the problem. Or, it could simply be that the cigars you didn't like were full-flavored and you simply didn't like the flavors at all! It is very common for cigars with in a marca to differ in all of the factors above. For example, a Bolivar Royal Corona is medium-bodied and medium-strength, whereas the Petite Corona is medium-full in both categories, and the Corona Extra is more like full. But all of them are full-flavored, and most are pretty complex and fairly dynamic. WELL PUT.....nice thoughts and I would generally agree with the way you broke this down.
alxs25 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 The following info is my own way to categorize things. It makes sense to me, but I'm far from an expert! Flavor: Simply, this is how much flavor is discernible in the cigar. A cigar can be light in strength but have tons of flavor--Cubans are some of the best examples of this, like an aged LGC MdO. Strength: Simply, this is how heavy the nicotine impact of the cigar is on your system. Some people (like myself) have a very high tolerance, others very low. For most people, the longer and more often they smoke, their tolerance for Vitamin N increases. But some guys smoke regularly for 20 years and just can't handle full-strength cigars (or maybe they can handle it, but just don't like the effects). Body is, for lack of a better description, how the smoke impacts your palate. This is often directly linked to how peppery/spicy a cigar is, but not always. Although I think body is connected to the strength of the nicotine content, t's possible for a cigar to be quite strong in terms of body, but not all that strong in terms of strength. For example Cubans like the RASS and H. Upmann Mag 46 are medium-full in body, but definitely full in flavor, whereas the strength is around medium usually. Also, a lot of young cigars can come off as "harsh" because the body is much stronger than the flavor or strength. A lot of "strong" NCs have a lot of strength and body, but not a ton in the flavor department (not a fan of that mix myself). When a cigar is in "balance," it will have flavor, body, and strength working in harmony. That's not to say they have to be at the same level, though. Complexity: A cigar is complex when you can detect multiple flavors at once. This is a culinary term, people use it for food, wine, spirits, etc. In cigars, it sometimes means that one puff will have a certain flavor more strongly than the next, etc. Many Cubans are rather complex, and many NCs are as well (the Opus X is a great example). Dynamism: This is my own term to refer to how a cigars flavors change over the course of the smoking experience. TIME is the main factor here. You can have a cigar that's not very complex, but does change over the course of the smoke in terms of flavor. I hear many cigar reviewers mistakenly using the term "complexity" to describe this phenomenon, but that's incorrect. Complexity is a separate term that already exists, and while it applies to cigars too, it's not the same as dynamism/flavor evolution. Complexity means lots of different flavors, and while it can mean the flavors change from one puff to the next in a cigar, it doesn't describe what happens when a cigar is truly dynamic. The fact that a cigar can change over time as you smoke it is a UNIQUE PHENOMENON WITH CIGARS, and I think we need to come up with a term to describe this awesome experience! So, when you say that some cigars seem to "overwhelm your palate," it sounds like you're talking about body. If a cigar has too much body for you to handle at any given time, you won't get the right flavor out of it. Instead, the cigar will taste kind of muddy or just unbalanced to you. This is why many people smoke lighter cigars earlier in the day, and stronger cigars in the evenings when their palates have been "broken in" with food all day, etc. A cigar with a lot of body will often lit you in the throat rather than just the mouth. IF the main effect you're experiencing is on your palate, then body is probably the issue. If the problems you're having is a lump in your throat, light-headedness, or nausea, then strength is the problem. Or, it could simply be that the cigars you didn't like were full-flavored and you simply didn't like the flavors at all! It is very common for cigars with in a marca to differ in all of the factors above. For example, a Bolivar Royal Corona is medium-bodied and medium-strength, whereas the Petite Corona is medium-full in both categories, and the Corona Extra is more like full. But all of them are full-flavored, and most are pretty complex and fairly dynamic. Well put indeed.. I think for my case its all down to body and strength. I couldnt agree more on the RASS and H.Up Mag 46 example. Both are cigars that absolutely enjoy and could even smoke them back to back. You can get big changes in terms of body flavour and strength in brands, for example RYJ Cazador is very strong while say the short churchill is quite mild for me. With partagas, the 898 is strong while the Lusitania is quite mild for me. Punch always overwhelms my palete, usually with flavours of ash and soot! No ideawhat is going on with them nowadays. A good idea could be getting two or three of the most popular cigars from each brand and see how you like them eg Partagas 898, partagas shorts RYJ Cazador, RYJ Short Churchill Montecristo especial #2. Montecristo Edmundo Bolivar gold medal, Bolivar PC, Bolivar Royal Corona Upmann mag 46, Upmann Connie #1, Upmann Sir Winnie Hoyo epicure #1, Hoyo epicure #2, Hoyo Petit robusto SLR Serie A, SLR Regio etc etc Nice to see another Brit by the way! Again I absolutely agree, especially as far as the Punch cigars are concerned I have experienced exactly the same. Enjoy their flavour and character but really overwhelming on my palete I specially remember the first Punch Punch I had which knocked me out for couple of hours. I know that at this stage of my cigar endeavour, a P898 would be a bad choice as the strength of the cigar combined with its size would be hard for me to handle. RYj Short Churchill, Uomanns Hoyo's and Trinidad reyes are part of my current rotation. Its nice to find Brits here, enjoyed your reviews and admired your dedication despite the rough weather conditions.!
phoenix Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 I know that at this stage of my cigar endeavour, a P898 would be a bad choice as the strength of the cigar combined with its size would be hard for me to handle. Couldn't disagree more re: the Partagas 898. Find yourself an 898 that is 2-3 years old and you will rewarded with a surprisingly complex, full-on engaging smoke start to finish. There's the 'Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" with every Marque and Vitola, but I find the 898's to be pretty darn consistent. For me there are 'good' ones, and then there are 'great' ones. You will not be overwhelmed, but rather... 'engaged.' Just my .02
mazolaman Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Hi Alexis, I've wandered my way around most marcas, and most of their cigars in recent years, looking to find my likes. I've recently found my self to be a flavour lover. So I'm not that bothered about how strong it is, as I find the stronger cigars (shorts, Boli Pc for example) are generally less subtle and have fewer varied flavours, loosing out to brute strength. So I find I like the mid strength stuff, as there is room for these flavours to show. For example, I had afew Monte no ones recently, mid strength, lots of flavours and complexity, also dynamism, expertly summarised above.
nikesupremedunk Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 thank you jedipastor for the breakdown. very helpful thread!
isa Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Alex, when i started smoking cigars regularly a few months back, i would kind of feel the same after the first 3 inches or so. With time though, it has improved. Now, unless a cigar is flat, i easily smoke medium length cigars without blinking, full flavour, full body - no problem. For me churchills & similar sized cigars are still too big - i get tired before the last inch. So if you are enjoying cigars, keep at it, sticking more to the petit corona type size & medium body, or whatever suits you - i think with time there is a good chance that you will have no issues smoking 7 inches of a strong cigar, IMHO
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