The end of sovereign law?

[CaptainQuintero]

Someone raised an interesting point earlier in the US banking seizure news article discussion, countries steping on the toes of others citizens for breaking their rules. Some countries it seems at some point have obviously signed up to mutual laws which enable their citizens to be extradited to others if they break certain rules. eg

Linky

Basically a guy in the UK was hosting a site which provided links to other sites where someone could download films and music illegally. A fuss has been raised as at the US government's request, the UK is extraditing him the the US for trial. The outrage has been caused because what he has done is not against the law in the UK, so he is be extradited to the US for breaking a US law in the UK. A similar comparison would be a French Citizen in France being extradited to face trial in the US for smoking a Cuban cigar.

A week or so ago a similar story surfaced when a blogger in Malaysia had been arrested and is facing extradition to Saudi Arabia at the request at the Saudi government because the blogger insulted Muhammad:

Linky

So it certainly seems that a number of countries have signed some kind of new treaties or acts without the public's knowledge, how many countries are signed up and who are they signed up with? Quite a worrying development it seems and there doesn't seem to be a huge coverage on it on the news at least here.

Without straying into discussing US policy, as this seems to be something that at least four countries are actively involved with, has other similar action been reported in your respective nations? It's fair to say that most nations are represented on FOH and our respective nations are all 'allies', I would assume if a couple of our nations are doing this then most if not all have the infrastructure in palce for it to happen too.

[MIKA27]

Someone raised an interesting point earlier in the US banking seizure news article discussion, countries steping on the toes of others citizens for breaking their rules. Some countries it seems at some point have obviously signed up to mutual laws which enable their citizens to be extradited to others if they break certain rules. eg

Linky

Basically a guy in the UK was hosting a site which provided links to other sites where someone could download films and music illegally. A fuss has been raised as at the US government's request, the UK is extraditing him the the US for trial. The outrage has been caused because what he has done is not against the law in the UK, so he is be extradited to the US for breaking a US law in the UK. A similar comparison would be a French Citizen in France being extradited to face trial in the US for smoking a Cuban cigar.

A week or so ago a similar story surfaced when a blogger in Malaysia had been arrested and is facing extradition to Saudi Arabia at the request at the Saudi government because the blogger insulted Muhammad:

Linky

So it certainly seems that a number of countries have signed some kind of new treaties or acts without the public's knowledge, how many countries are signed up and who are they signed up with? Quite a worrying development it seems and there doesn't seem to be a huge coverage on it on the news at least here.

Without straying into discussing US policy, as this seems to be something that at least four countries are actively involved with, has other similar action been reported in your respective nations? It's fair to say that most nations are represented on FOH and our respective nations are all 'allies', I would assume if a couple of our nations are doing this then most if not all have the infrastructure in palce for it to happen too.

Laws in a great majority of countries really need to change IMO.

Australia is one of them in that we have inherited a great deal of 'old' law and alot of it is way past its due date and should be updated with the times. Without changing laws to coincide with modern times, people always find and exploit loopholes.

In many cases, here in Australia for instance, it 'seems' the law and the legal system actually protect the criminals and or the wealthy leaving the average person in a pile of

[Ken Gargett]

it is a very dicey area and especially so with the rise of terrorism but then it can be taken too far.

but if someone deliberately sets out to break the laws of a country but does so from the supposed safety of outside that country, what then? limits need to be set but with technology evolving so quickly, they are soon out of date. wikileaks a prime example, and the associated sex claims.

old law is not necessarily bad law but it is up to parliament to change it, not the judges. they should, in the vast majority of cases, be interpreting the law, not making it. don't blame the legal system - blame ineffectual politicians.

[thechenman]

it is a very dicey area and especially so with the rise of terrorism but then it can be taken too far.

but if someone deliberately sets out to break the laws of a country but does so from the supposed safety of outside that country, what then? limits need to be set but with technology evolving so quickly, they are soon out of date. wikileaks a prime example, and the associated sex claims.

old law is not necessarily bad law but it is up to parliament to change it, not the judges. they should, in the vast majority of cases, be interpreting the law, not making it. don't blame the legal system - blame ineffectual politicians.

Well said Ken...

[Peter11216]

So it certainly seems that a number of countries have signed some kind of new treaties or acts without the public's knowledge, how many countries are signed up and who are they signed up with? Quite a worrying development it seems and there doesn't seem to be a huge coverage on it on the news at least here.

There isn't a lot of coverage about this issue. I think one of the most important areas of law that relates to this is law governing foreign direct investment, often governed by bilateral investment treaties, BIT's.

Most or all of the countries in Africa, for example, have BITs with nations in the EU. The standard BIT gives foreign investors special rights, not granted to domestic businesses. The treaties usually give foreign investors the right to sue the host nation, where the dispute will end up in arbitration, sometimes private. These agreements are usually signed with zero public input. They tend not to be all that popular. No one really likes the idea of giving a foreign business the right to sue their government, even when their own businesses cannot do the same.

Canada was taken to arbitration in the early '90's by a foreign company. Canada had tried to ban a neurotoxin (that is banned in the United States), but banning it would have prevented the company from manufacturing the chemical (which was used in gasoline).

[CanuckSARTech]

Agreed wholeheartedly with Ken.

Since the tragedy of 9-11, and for right or wrong, many universal rights and priveledges of citizens have been going out the window. Granted, there's definitely some useful purposes and positive outcomes with these changes, but it's such a sad shame when one thing is trumpeted and therefore a particular law used just to fulfill a personal/political/partisan/regional gain.

[winelover]

It is also up to the citizens in countries that are handing them over willy nilly to pressure their law makers to put in place a fair and ttansparent extradition treaty. In the UK-US extradition treaty it used to be necessary for the US Govt to make a prima facie case before a judge would allow the accused to be carted off. These days they more or less have to ask and we will kow-tow.

The current Conservative government when recently in opposition said they'd review the extradition treaty but whether they actually will or not is another thing.

[mazolaman]

Trade rules the world, politicians may move the seats around a bit, but the likes of Goldman Sachs are in charge.

As mentioned elsewhere, a politician who has the stones to do the right thing is required, but they are scared of the economic repercussions, and for fear of not being re-elected in the regular popularity contest...