aging and conditioning

[brettgross13]

Hi folks, I asked a similar question before and received a lot of thoughtful and helpful replies. I really appreciated that. Here's a kind of related question: What does extensive aging do to cigars under the proper conditions? What does a lack of aging or conditioning produce? I imagine people are going to say "depends on the cigar"? I ordered a box of La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No. 1 from 2002 recently. I found these cigars to be a bit mild - although after more than a month in my humidor they do still have a slightly ammonia-like smell. I'm wondering if this is their flavor profile, lack of enough conditioning or if it's extensive aging that makes them so mild? I am thinking of buying a box of le hoyo des dieux from 03 or a box of Vegas Classicos from 05. Do you think that these smokes will turn out to be especially mild with this much age on the box? I'm a little confused about aging these days. Also, are cigars likely to be un-flavorful if they aren't properly conditioned or aged? Are they likely to pick up flavor with time (I also bought a box of Upmann 46s and a box of Vegas Famosos that don't seem quite flavorful enough)? Or is it that without age or conditioning they are brash and harsh? A year and a half into this hobby - I'm still struggling to get a handle on this issue.

[brettgross13]

I should say that I recognize that my palate might not be sensitive enough yet. I was a bit disappointed this week with my smokes until I smoked a hoyo de monterrey epicure especial. The box is from 09. 10 days out of the box and it was full of wonderful flavors - IMO. I'm confused about this.

[Colt45]

Good questions, though perhaps difficult to address with brevity (at least for me). Please take what I say as conversational, and not as any kind of statement

of fact. I guess the foundation would be consistency of tobacco processing, blending, and cigar construction. If we are assured of these elements, it might be

easier to say with more confidence that cigar x usually smokes nicely with six months in the box, cigar z with two years, etc.

Also, until around 2006, the Cubans didn't really age their tobacco after processing and prior to rolling. It seems that with each passing harvest, Cuban cigars

require less aging to near their peak of flavor - or are at least more "approachable" at a younger age.

Two of the cigars you mention - the VR Famoso and Upmann Magnum 46 - I've personally found to need a solid three years to begin to show their true selves,

but that has been with cigars from around 2005 - I don't know about more recent vintages.

So, I know this probably hasn't helped much, but in the end, I think it takes personal experimentation and experience - I guess it's part of the learning journey.

One final thing - I know it can be frustrating, especially early on. But I've learned to not get too caught up with these type of things, and to trust myself. It's

all about enjoyment for me - if it becomes a chore, I think it loses it's value - becomes not worth the effort.

[brettgross13]

Good questions, though perhaps difficult to address with brevity (at least for me). Please take what I say as conversational, and not as any kind of statement

of fact. I guess the foundation would be consistency of tobacco processing, blending, and cigar construction. If we are assured of these elements, it might be

easier to say with more confidence that cigar x usually smokes nicely with six months in the box, cigar z with two years, etc.

Also, until around 2006, the Cubans didn't really age their tobacco after processing and prior to rolling. It seems that with each passing harvest, Cuban cigars

require less aging to near their peak of flavor - or are at least more "approachable" at a younger age.

Two of the cigars you mention - the VR Famoso and Upmann Magnum 46 - I've personally found to need a solid three years to begin to show their true selves,

but that has been with cigars from around 2005 - I don't know about more recent vintages.

So, I know this probably hasn't helped much, but in the end, I think it takes personal experimentation and experience - I guess it's part of the learning journey.

One final thing - I know it can be frustrating, especially early on. But I've learned to not get too caught up with these type of things, and to trust myself. It's

all about enjoyment for me - if it becomes a chore, I think it loses it's value - becomes not worth the effort.

Thanks for your reply. I think it is true that I've just got to enjoy smoking cigars and, with time, I'll come to figure it out. I had a 46 last night that was really great. It was the first one from this box that showed a lot of flavor. But they're only stamped from 09 and I think you're right that I need to be a bit patient. The Famosos definitely seem like they need more time.

So I wonder if it is or isn't necessarily true that ten years will make cigars mild? My LGC#1 are from 02. Does extensive aging often produce very mild cigars? Or is this not the case at all, i.e. they have their own individual trajectories?

[Colt45]

So I wonder if it is or isn't necessarily true that ten years will make cigars mild? My LGC#1 are from 02. Does extensive aging often produce very mild cigars? Or is this not the case at all, i.e. they have their own individual trajectories?

I think that at some point, cigars will start to lose what I consider positive properties - sometimes an old cigar is just an old cigar. Obviously, I can't speak

on your LGCs, but I'm nearly through a box of Upmann Sir Winstons from '00, which, when drawing properly have been fantastic, and show no sign of losing

their intensity.

To a degree, I think that some cigars do have their, as you put it, own trajectories. But again, I really feel it comes down to how the cigar was made to begin with.

And in my own personal opinion, a twenty or thirty year old cigar is little more than a collectors item.

[brettgross13]

Thanks for all the replies. I sometimes feel that my questions are a bit daft. I appreciate the answers. I'm going to give my LGC more rest and see what happens. The first one I had was really fantastic. The next two were less so. I'm just wondering whether or not I'm doing my self any favors by going for the 03 or 05 boxes - by going for older dated boxes in general. Perhaps there's only one way to find out! Maybe it's an interesting general question for people here (maybe): Do you go for older box dates when you find them? Has that been rewarding?

[PigFish]

There is not really an answer for all you have asked. The aged cigar, when viewed as aggregated events is an experience! It is frustrating, enjoyable, sublime, disappointing, different and again similar!!! Is this a riddle; no more a riddle than the aged cigar itself? The aged cigar is an enigma. No one can define it let alone agree on what time in years, months or days defines "aged."

Sorry if I was not much help mate. Like all cigars, or just CC... you simply need to explore the experience to understand it. The "aged" cigar, is not specific.

From a cynical side, I see aged, as in for decades, a means by which smokers define and stratify themselves. It is a means by with the collector defines his collection and holds his nose above his smoking peers! It is not that an aged cigar cannot be as excellent as they are exalted for. But most certainly they are expensive. It is the expense that defines them objectively first and foremost whereas the taste and the experience is one that is subjective.

While many cigar collectors are very generous souls and this is not designed to deride them, the aged cigar is another means by which one can show his peer group that he has more to spend, or perhaps has 'better taste' than the group at large.

I say experience what you can and make your own conclusions. Don't follow anyone!!! Find what you like and explore as you see fit. If the aged cigar in a broad sence is your cup of tea, become one of the many devoted to its acquisition and consumption. But if you find that after smoking 10K in aged cigars, you conclude that you would have had 10 times the sublime smoking experience from 10K worth of cigars made everyday for us commoners... well, lets say you would be in good company.

The aged cigar was likely a 'commoner' cigar but a decade or so ago. It is defined by how well it was made then, the care that has been invested in it since and the auctioneers gavel.

Cheers mate. -Piggy

[brettgross13]

There is not really an answer for all you have asked. The aged cigar, when viewed as aggregated events is an experience! It is frustrating, enjoyable, sublime, disappointing, different and again similar!!! Is this a riddle; no more a riddle than the aged cigar itself? The aged cigar is an enigma. No one can define it let alone agree on what time in years, months or days defines "aged."

Sorry if I was not much help mate. Like all cigars, or just CC... you simply need to explore the experience to understand it. The "aged" cigar, is not specific.

From a cynical side, I see aged, as in for decades, a means by which smokers define and stratify themselves. It is a means by with the collector defines his collection and holds his nose above his smoking peers! It is not that an aged cigar cannot be as excellent as they are exalted for. But most certainly they are expensive. It is the expense that defines them objectively first and foremost whereas the taste and the experience is one that is subjective.

While many cigar collectors are very generous souls and this is not designed to deride them, the aged cigar is another means by which one can show his peer group that he has more to spend, or perhaps has 'better taste' than the group at large.

I say experience what you can and make your own conclusions. Don't follow anyone!!! Find what you like and explore as you see fit. If the aged cigar in a broad sence is your cup of tea, become one of the many devoted to its acquisition and consumption. But if you find that after smoking 10K in aged cigars, you conclude that you would have had 10 times the sublime smoking experience from 10K worth of cigars made everyday for us commoners... well, lets say you would be in good company.

The aged cigar was likely a 'commoner' cigar but a decade or so ago. It is defined by how well it was made then, the care that has been invested in it since and the auctioneers gavel.

Cheers mate. -Piggy

Excellent reply! Thanks. Yeah, I don't have the money to be a collector of this sort. I appreciate your point. It's well taken. I was just spying some relatively inexpensive deals on boxes from 03, 05 or even 08. I think I'm not interested or able to pursue age as a staple or as a class of cigars. As I brought up in a previous post, I see deals on slightly aged 5x5 boxes sometimes - I guess because they're less desirable to some. Anyway, I think, like you've suggested, that I'll just have to smoke em! I'm just kind of curious if a lot of people prefer slightly older dates on the boxes. Being relatively new to the hobby I'm wondering if I'm doing myself a favor or obsessing on this for no reason. I'm also wondering if a little age will turn a stick that seems lacking in flavor into a flavorful smoke.

When I used to smoke NCs I noticed that I always got the same thing consistently out of a cigar. I lost interest. With Cubans I find that sometimes I'm disappointed and then other times I'm just blown away. I was recently a bit disappointed with some smokes from a box of Upmann 46s. Then I had one the other night that was just sublime. I wonder how this affects reviews. Anyway...sorry I'm meandering! Guess it's my bedtime!

[Vortigan]

I'm really not sure that I can offer anything of any real value here but my own personal experience almost every time I've received a new box of cigars has been that the first one,smoked pretty much right away,has been excellent and everything that I'd expect of the marque,the vitola and very consistent with most respected reviews.What I've then found,through my own impatience is that if I don't give the rest time to adjust to my own personal conditions and humidor etc then the next one can be harsh and polar opposite to the first,a real disappointment in fact.Now,whilst I'm still having to learn about just how long it is that my cigars need to get used to my own conditions etc etc I'm sure that I don't expect (or hope) it to be more than maybe two or three months,after which I'm hoping that I'll get the same experience from each cigar as from the first ROTB upon delivery.I myself,like many others,don't have the money to expend on huge stashes to put down for years nor to buy the already aged stock.Cheers,

Mike

[PigFish]

Excellent reply! Thanks. Yeah, I don't have the money to be a collector of this sort. I appreciate your point. It's well taken. I was just spying some relatively inexpensive deals on boxes from 03, 05 or even 08. I think I'm not interested or able to pursue age as a staple or as a class of cigars. As I brought up in a previous post, I see deals on slightly aged 5x5 boxes sometimes - I guess because they're less desirable to some. Anyway, I think, like you've suggested, that I'll just have to smoke em! I'm just kind of curious if a lot of people prefer slightly older dates on the boxes. Being relatively new to the hobby I'm wondering if I'm doing myself a favor or obsessing on this for no reason. I'm also wondering if a little age will turn a stick that seems lacking in flavor into a flavorful smoke.

When I used to smoke NCs I noticed that I always got the same thing consistently out of a cigar. I lost interest. With Cubans I find that sometimes I'm disappointed and then other times I'm just blown away. I was recently a bit disappointed with some smokes from a box of Upmann 46s. Then I had one the other night that was just sublime. I wonder how this affects reviews. Anyway...sorry I'm meandering! Guess it's my bedtime!

Welcome to CC's!

I know I will likely say, as usual, things that are not mainstream in this endeavor. Age does not fix anything! Yep, that is my opinion. Age may change a cigar, and I think that it does but it does not make the bad cigar good. What many experience in the smoking of two or more cigars over time, where they overate the alleged similarity of the cigars (consistency), notice a difference and attribute it to age, the noted inconsistency. The lovely thing about being a CC is that it is never your fault that you were bad!!!

More than anything, water affects a cigar (MHO). What age does, is change the water content in many cases, not exclusively, but in many obvious cases. Attributing drying over time, to age and not to water is then, I think, a common mistake.

There are a lot of factors that change your smoking experience. A carefully aged, lousy cigar will alway be a lousy cigar! A carefully aged excellent cigar will likely remain an excellent cigar.

-Piggy

[Maron76]

Welcome to CC's!

There are a lot of factors that change your smoking experience. A carefully aged, lousy cigar will alway be a lousy cigar! A carefully aged excellent cigar will likely remain an excellent cigar.

-Piggy

Great post Piggy. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[brettgross13]

Welcome to CC's!

I know I will likely say, as usual, things that are not mainstream in this endeavor. Age does not fix anything! Yep, that is my opinion. Age may change a cigar, and I think that it does but it does not make the bad cigar good. What many experience in the smoking of two or more cigars over time, where they overate the alleged similarity of the cigars (consistency), notice a difference and attribute it to age, the noted inconsistency. The lovely thing about being a CC is that it is never your fault that you were bad!!!

More than anything, water affects a cigar (MHO). What age does, is change the water content in many cases, not exclusively, but in many obvious cases. Attributing drying over time, to age and not to water is then, I think, a common mistake.

There are a lot of factors that change your smoking experience. A carefully aged, lousy cigar will alway be a lousy cigar! A carefully aged excellent cigar will likely remain an excellent cigar.

-Piggy

Very interesting reply. Perhaps I should also pay more attention to my humidity levels. I actually find that my small desktop humidor (I have two) fluctuates a bit in humidity level - especially now that the humidity level is spiking on certain days.

Thanks for the great reply. I'll have to ponder over all this information!