Fighting for cigar rights

[frenchkiwi]

Just noticed El pres shouting about a gvt proposal against plain packaging... and i thought:

What leverage do we cigar smokers have to push back the tide of restrictions and ever higher taxation?

Retailers can argue that it's bad for business hence jobs profits taxes - the Economy, Stupid. If they were Big enough and shouted loud enough the government of the day might deign to take notice as "the Economy" is the altar before which all must grovel in the ideological climate of the western world today. Not so much us smokers as we can argue that it's hurting the shops and the cuban economy but that just doesn't seem to cut it, does it?

Cigar aficionados - well, we seem to be restricted to the emotional cry of "No to the Nanny State", "No more taxes/regulations". Unfortunately, although this tugs at the heartstrings of many, and has surprising resonance in those countries with the least amount of regulations & tax in the west (?!) e.g. in the U.S. or here in new zealand, the numbers and associated clout are often lacking (at least in the U.S. there seems to be a broader lobbying movement that cigar rights taps into).

One of the biggest problems is that the hearts & minds of the public are solidly set against Smoking as "smoking kills". Not so much in anarchist countries like France Spain or Italy (haha) but definitely in goody two shoes anglo-nordic places. Understandably so in view of the health statistics and costs to public health! Unfortunately this means that cigar smoking, which is largely an irregular hobby (less than one a day, less addictive ) is lumped in with the Nicotine Delivery industry (cigarette smoking). Smoking is demonised, there is even a policy proposal to ban the sale of tobacco altogether here in NZ!

So the issue here is: how do we divorce cigars from cigarettes in public legislation?

As far as I know there has been only one medical study on irregular cigar smoking, and it concluded: no demonstrable link to worsened health outcomes. The policymakers know this, but can't be bothered separating cigars out from other tobacco taxes because it's too bothersome (so said my friend the health ministry analyst when he was working on this very issue). Read: it is slightly complicated and there is no political will to do so.

So where do we go? How do we gain any traction in a crusade to end the unfair discrimination against cigar smoking that sees it lumped in with its deadly unfermented peer? Any ideas anyone?

[mazolaman]

could you enlighten us as to the government proposal re plain packaging,and how it affects us/you?

[El Presidente]

They are weak where they cannot enforce.

"Give them nothing take them nowhere" is my personal mantra.

You and I have a right to exist. Exercise it.

We will have a campaign up shortly for our Australian brethren and likeminded spirits globally who wish to engage. If you wish to act like sheep at a slaughter then say nothing. I have no similar intent.

Set the sail, hoist the Jolly Roger. F them one and all regardless of political persuasion.

Line in the sand, off to Jail, I have been before... just use a fresh glove and lubricant.

Interesting six months ahead in Australia.

[El Presidente]

could you enlighten us as to the government proposal re plain packaging,and how it affects us/you?

We are in discussions with Federal policy committee , will keep you up to date.

[frenchkiwi]

could you enlighten us as to the government proposal re plain packaging,and how it affects us/you?

Plain packaging is on its way in here in NZ as well. No difference for cigar retailer shopfronts - their cigars can't be visible from street and have to be in plain boxes with no visible brand once you're inside anyway!

Visible Smoking Kills signs inside and outside shops, etc, the list of requirements goes on and on and is highly policed. Kind of like Orwell's 1984 except for tobacco only.

@El Pres: Vaseline? Hope you only hiding Guantanamera Puritos up there and not Sir Winstons. ha ha

[CanuckSARTech]

Line in the sand, off to Jail, I have been before... just use a fresh glove and lubricant.

Ewwwwwww.......

[kcheek]

I could write a book on how I have grown to resent government. I don't live in Australia, but where I do live it is no better. Makes me sick how they want to control everything we do.

[frenchkiwi]

Coincidentally, the policy that New Zealand would be smoke free by 2025 was formally adopted yesterday.

The only resistance strategy i have adopted so far is to stop ordering via post overseas and paying the ridiculous duty here, instead developing a network of cigar mules who will use duty free allowance to legally import my cigars. The joke is on me really (what a hassle) but what else can we do?

You let us know what's cooking up at Cigar Rights Australia, Presidente, and i will throw my considerable lack of weight behind it. NZ legislators follow their aussie counterparts like sheep ... (funny that)... and there is nothing here... so you are our only hope.

[anacostiakat]

Fight The Power!

[frenchkiwi]

Fight The Power!

thanks for this, very interesting.

it basically shows that the cigar sales in the U.S. are basically unregulated at the federal/national level. Are there any restrictions/extra taxes at State level?

Because as far as that article indicates, it's basically the Wild West in the U.S. as far as cigar selling goes ("There is no law at all in Deadwood" ;-), at least in relative terms to some of Europe and all of Canada, Australia and New Zealand - where every single aspect of sale is regulated, and they have one of the highest % duty/tax of any item on the market...

here in NZ we pay roughly US$350 duty per kg of tobacco, plus 15% tax on the total. Let's say a box of Monte no.4s has 250g tobacco, costs $130, with duty and tax ends up costing $250. Almost twice the price!!! That might be even be pretty low compared to those other countries.

And then you have to put dark glasses and a hoody on, jump in an unmarked van, get to the unmarked tobacco shop with coded directions, undergo psych testing, waterboarding, brainwashing with "Smoking Kills!" slogan, and finally select your cigars blindfolded from unmarked boxes before you can buy the damn things

in other words, you're lucky, lucky b*stards !!!

[mazolaman]

There was a little piece on radio 4 about this.

It mentioned that the main physical differences will be the adoption of olive coloured boxes for every brand (apparently,we dislike this colour most,and find it less appealing),with little room for brandname etc.

Display will be outlawed,so more or less an under the counter situation.

more horrific stickers on boxes.

It seems this is just about cranking up the tax,to the aim of being smoke free.

IMO

box colour is irrelevant,at least with cigarettes,this won't deter a 20 a day cigarette smoker,but I personally would be gutted to loose the colourful cigar boxes.

our governments have little power now(as seen with bankers and such)so flex their muscles with stuff like this.

Drinks and smokes are whipping boys,possibly paying close to their health costs in tax duty.

Where are such laws for processed food,that are causing the western world to become obese,or controls on the emissions from vehicles.

[snickers99]

It is evident to me that in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and even in the US there is a movement among some to ban tobacco in all its forms. It reminds me a little of Prohibition in the US many years ago. It is human nature to want to control people who won't behave themselves. That tendency has popular appeal when it is presented as being for their own good. The fact is most people don't smoke. Even fewer smoke premium cigars. Therefore the public at large doesn't give a rats ass about our plight. Non smokers probably celebrate each intrusion into our freedom to do as we please. The politicians and the bureaucrats feel a post-orgasmic afterglow with the adoption of each new regulation.

Even the stereotypic image of the cigar smoker fuels the process. Why, cigar smokers are wealthy, white, rich, corpulent males who have raped the worlds poor. I cannot imagine a more reviled character. What great fodder for the politico! You see, cigar smokers fit into the current western political farytale very well - as the villain! If we have bought into this political fantasy all these years we have only ourselves to blame. We have supported it with our votes, our contributions, and our tolerance of its excesses. Don't be surprised that the regulatory beast has turned on you - you've fed and nurtured it all these years.

What to do? The above referenced article is good. It's the place to begin. The fallback position is to go underground and wait a generation or two for the political winds to shift. I have to admit I am angry. I am angry at the control freaks in our respective governments. I am angry with each lost liberty - even if it is your liberty that is lost. I am angry at those who do not see the dangers of government power and the necessity to check, control, and limit it whenever possible and in every way. Lastly I am angry at those who don't understand that we must protect each others rights, liberties, freedoms, and property. These things are essential virtues, people, not sins.

[frenchkiwi]

Saw this on stogieguys website while looking up NC reviews - here's an actual bill looking at legally differentiating Cigars from other tobacco for regulatory purposes. At face value - sounds good to me!

News: Light Up Congress

The bill to keep the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) from regulating premium cigars as part of its newly acquired tobacco oversight is inching along in Congress. The latest advance is a few more co-sponsors—including a second Democrat—putting the total at 22.

“We’re still pushing the bill,†George Cecala, spokesman for Rep. Bill Posey, the Florida Republican who introduced the bill in April, told me the other day. He added that the congressman, described by Cecala as an occasional cigar smoker, is especially concerned about potential job losses if FDA cigar regulations are adopted.

What’s needed now is for you to join the push by getting in touch with your representative and urging support for the bill, known as HR 1639.

It could be a milestone for cigar regulation. It would constitute legislative recognition of premium cigars for a reason other than taxation and establish an even sharper distinction from cigarettes. As such, it would make it easier, and more likely, for premium cigars to be excluded from future regulations.

Now I know there are smokers who consider it heretical to argue for favoring one form of tobacco over another. They believe that everyone who uses tobacco should be fighting every restriction on every form. Frankly, to me that’s not only impractical; it’s detrimental for cigar smokers.

Impractical because I think the cigarette battle is already over. Regulations and restrictions will continue and, without a clear distinction established, cigars will continue to be drawn in. (I’d include pipe smoking with cigars, but that’s not under consideration here.)

Detrimental because cigarettes and cigars have no more in common than does a showroom Chevy and the dragster at the SuperNationals or a bottle of MD 20/20 and a bottle of Château Latour. Sharing traits doesn’t make things identical. Consider the effects wrought by a only few percentage points of differences in the DNA of chimps and humans.

Cigarettes—and, I would argue, nearly all machine-made and “little†cigars—are nicotine delivery systems. Premium cigars are not. Cigarettes are addictive. Premium cigars are not. Cigarettes are available nearly everywhere. Premium cigars are not. Cigarette smoking by underage teens is widely seen as a problem. Underage smokers don’t light up premium cigars. I could go on. But the differences are obvious from almost any angle. Just one more analogy: When states and agencies attacked caffeinated alcohol drinks, I don’t think wine industry trade groups jumped to their defense.

Another reason HR1639 needs your support is that the premium cigar industry is pretty small, however you want to measure it. Number of smokers, amount of product, sales, taxes, employees…

Groups like the Cigar Association of America, Cigar Rights of America, and the International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association work hard and are worthy of support, but they‘re not wielding massive artillery. Grass roots efforts can have a significant impact.

Make no mistake about it, either. Impact is necessary. Because, contrary to the popular notion of Congress passing legislation willy-nilly, the truth is that only about 5-10% of the bills introduced by members each term are approved and signed into law, and many of those are just ceremonial, like naming a building. Right now, HR1639 sits in the House Committee on Energy and Commerce’s Subcommittee on Health, with no hearings held or scheduled.

It’s really a simple bill, excluding “traditional large and premium cigars†from FDA oversight under the 2010 Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. A traditional large and premium cigar is basically defined as “any roll of tobacco that is wrapped in leaf tobacco, contains no filter, and weighs at least 6 pounds per 1,000 count.â€

I hope you’re convinced. Taking action doesn’t really take much effort. Tips are available here. Let’s all get behind this. And maybe before too long we can light up a victory cigar.

-George E