Temperature of humidor

[warren516]

I was given an end table humidor, aristocrate looking, but difinately no way as good. I needed to put the glass back in the front door and tighten the box up. I also added some weatherstripping in around the inside of the unit to help seal the door.

It seems to be holding humidity nicely at 65% with my Cigar Oasis plus and I would like to start filling it up. I have a pound of heartfelt to put in to assist in taking out humidity in the summer months.

I have some questions of temperature.

I live in a 3 story attached townhome with no basement. During the winter months, the main floor stays about 60 degrees (15.5 celcius) and gets up to 70 if I run the heater all day. The second floor stays between 70-75 (21-24 c) most of the day and the 3rd floor....well, it's very comfortable up there when the heater is on.

Would keeping the unit on the first floor be ok for the cigars?

Thanks for all the help. I'll have to post some pictures later.

[dicko]

Sound perfect. whats the worry? my house has terrible insulation. like massive fluctuations in temp. feels bad :-(

[warren516]

Well, it does get down to 56 on the really cold days. maybe I'm just paranoid after I stock it up, don't want to ruin great cigars.

[rckymtn22]

Cold temperatures are not as a big of a deal as warm temperatures. That I would be worried about.

[android]

Not to worry my friend.

[warren516]

Thanks everyone. Now time to figure out which cigars I will be stocking it with.

[#2 man]

First floor Warren

[PigFish]

You may wish to keep a lower RH at 60 Deg. I have found that cooler cigars need less RH. JMHO.

[docbp87]

Am I correct in my experience that the only problem with colder temperatures is that they tend to produce lower RH%? Like, if my temperature is low, but my RH is fine, no worries, right?

[PigFish]

Am I correct in my experience that the only problem with colder temperatures is that they tend to produce lower RH%? Like, if my temperature is low, but my RH is fine, no worries, right?

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. There is not real right or wrong in this. What I will do is explain what I have experienced and a little science.

What you are aiming to achieve is some ideal water content "as you" define it in the tobacco that you are about to smoke. There is no really easy way to determine that "actual" water content without testing each cigar and likely piercing each cigar to perform the test. We therefore rely on a secondary means to control the water content. We understand that tobacco is hygroscopic and it can be dried or moistened by the air that surrounds it. We relate the moisture level in certain conditions (a given RH) to that which gives us the taste and feel of the tobacco that we enjoy and we are done.

We are done until we decide that we want to change the parameters. And while it is easy speak in generalizations, it begins to get a little fuzzy when people start to tamper with multiple variables and seek a certain environment.

If you are looking for charts which show the actual content water of a tobacco leaf under certain temperature and pressure readings, well I don't have them! What I have is empirical evidence, enough to satisfy me, due to the years that I have experimented with air, temperature, water and tobacco and certified data logging hygrometers.

If you take a sealed vessel at a given temperature and RH, and you reduce the temperature of the vessel from the outside, or without drying the air, you will see that the RH level in the vessel increases. Why? Because relative humidity is just that; relative to temperature. It is not an absolute humidity reading. As the temperature declines the amount of water that the air can hold as related to a percentage decreases. Just as you heat water to dissolve more salt or sugar, you must heat air to get it to contain more water. When you shock the air, as in exhaling the content of your lungs on cold glass the water precipitates. Why? Because you changed the temperature of the air and caused the water to fall out of suspension.

Now back to your cooler. Colder air holds less water. You might think then that you should add water (RH) to the air to keep the same actual water in the cigar. This is intuitive but it does not work that way. Tobacco is not air!!! I will say that again. Tobacco is not air! It has its own characteristics as a cellular solid and it does not behave along the same line as that of Relative Humidity to air.

I have no actual experimental evidence for this. What I mean is that I have not taken the time to document an experiment for you. It is a evidenced only from years of empirical observations and experimentation, I am convinced of it as fact. You therefore take it at your own risk. I offer it as advice only.

What I have found is that when one attempts to follow what is perceived as intuitive, as I did, I found that in sealed humidors, the excess moisture contributed to a mildew odor, likely from the dress boxes, with no benefit in moisture content to the cigar itself. I believe as tobacco is cooled its hygroscopic function (for lack of a better term) is such that water moves more slowly either into our out of the cigar.

Unlike some who cool their cigars due to a fear of the tobacco beetle, I do so as a matter of consistent temperature, not for pest control. I don't cool my cigars well below 70 deg. F. as many do. I want them kept consistent at a level that I want to smoke them. I don't really want them ranging in temperature as my house does on a spring day. It could be 62 in my house while I am asleep and 90 during a hot day. If I leave my home without the AC on my cigars would likely move through a 20 degree range or more during certain seasons. I don't like all the fluctuations and therefore build controlled spaces for my cigars. Ranging temperatures wreak havoc on your RH levels as I have explained. I like a consistent smoking experience and therefore I keep my cigars in a consistent environment for that purpose.

Best of luck on your project. -Piggy

[PLUSH]

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. There is not real right or wrong in this. What I will do is explain what I have experienced and a little science.

What you are aiming to achieve is some ideal water content "as you" define it in the tobacco that you are about to smoke. There is no really easy way to determine that "actual" water content without testing each cigar and likely piercing each cigar to perform the test. We therefore rely on a secondary means to control the water content. We understand that tobacco is hygroscopic and it can be dried or moistened by the air that surrounds it. We relate the moisture level in certain conditions (a given RH) to that which gives us the taste and feel of the tobacco that we enjoy and we are done.

We are done until we decide that we want to change the parameters. And while it is easy speak in generalizations, it begins to get a little fuzzy when people start to tamper with multiple variables and seek a certain environment.

If you are looking for charts which show the actual content water of a tobacco leaf under certain temperature and pressure readings, well I don't have them! What I have is empirical evidence, enough to satisfy me, due to the years that I have experimented with air, temperature, water and tobacco and certified data logging hygrometers.

If you take a sealed vessel at a given temperature and RH, and you reduce the temperature of the vessel from the outside, or without drying the air, you will see that the RH level in the vessel increases. Why? Because relative humidity is just that; relative to temperature. It is not an absolute humidity reading. As the temperature declines the amount of water that the air can hold as related to a percentage decreases. Just as you heat water to dissolve more salt or sugar, you must heat air to get it to contain more water. When you shock the air, as in exhaling the content of your lungs on cold glass the water precipitates. Why? Because you changed the temperature of the air and caused the water to fall out of suspension.

Now back to your cooler. Colder air holds less water. You might think then that you should add water (RH) to the air to keep the same actual water in the cigar. This is intuitive but it does not work that way. Tobacco is not air!!! I will say that again. Tobacco is not air! It has its own characteristics as a cellular solid and it does not behave along the same line as that of Relative Humidity to air.

I have no actual experimental evidence for this. What I mean is that I have not taken the time to document an experiment for you. It is a evidenced only from years of empirical observations and experimentation, I am convinced of it as fact. You therefore take it at your own risk. I offer it as advice only.

What I have found is that when one attempts to follow what is perceived as intuitive, as I did, I found that in sealed humidors, the excess moisture contributed to a mildew odor, likely from the dress boxes, with no benefit in moisture content to the cigar itself. I believe as tobacco is cooled its hygroscopic function (for lack of a better term) is such that water moves more slowly either into our out of the cigar.

Unlike some who cool their cigars due to a fear of the tobacco beetle, I do so as a matter of consistent temperature, not for pest control. I don't cool my cigars well below 70 deg. F. as many do. I want them kept consistent at a level that I want to smoke them. I don't really want them ranging in temperature as my house does on a spring day. It could be 62 in my house while I am asleep and 90 during a hot day. If I leave my home without the AC on my cigars would likely move through a 20 degree range or more during certain seasons. I don't like all the fluctuations and therefore build controlled spaces for my cigars. Ranging temperatures wreak havoc on your RH levels as I have explained. I like a consistent smoking experience and therefore I keep my cigars in a consistent environment for that purpose.

Best of luck on your project. -Piggy

So how do you keep them from getting cold? I have mine in wine coolers. During the winter months they are unplugged. Right now it is about 20 degrees outside and 60-65 in the house. During the summer it gets 105 outside and anywhere from 77-90 in side thus the wine coolers. I can regulate the temps during the summer but not so much in winter. I have clay beads in all my coolers so no matter what temps it gets they stay around 64-67 rh.

[PigFish]

So how do you keep them from getting cold? I have mine in wine coolers. During the winter months they are unplugged. Right now it is about 20 degrees outside and 60-65 in the house. During the summer it gets 105 outside and anywhere from 77-90 in side thus the wine coolers. I can regulate the temps during the summer but not so much in winter. I have clay beads in all my coolers so no matter what temps it gets they stay around 64-67 rh.

I heat my home! Since I keep my home in winter about 68 degrees in the day, and say 62 downstairs where my humidors are at night, they stay about 67-68 degrees... right where they are now. There is a wine cooler project document on the site, one of which anyway, that is mine. I use wine coolers which are insulated. The insulation works both ways. My coolers, surprisingly enough do run a couple of times a day in the winter.

My latest project has a dehumidifying cycle that actually strips excess humidity from the cabinet. Handy during damp winter days. I intend on adding a heater to my next project making it truly a perfect environment for all locations and all seasons. I am waiting a while on that one while I do some work around the house.

Please don't take offense to this, but if you were to utilize a certified data logger you would likely see that the claim, "my coolers stay around 64-67 RH" is simply not accurate. They may average in this range, but they don't stay there! They are likely more stable in winter as they are not cycling, but the minute your cooling device starts, that device strips humidity from the air inside. If your hygrometer does not record the event it is likely due to the resolution of your device. Mine will register immediately upon opening a door but I use a high resolution controller. With cigars in boxes the mean is all that really matters. MHO. Cigar are stout and stoic. They really can suffer some pretty harsh environments without effect and many of us, and I am a worst case example, worry about them way too much!

Don't take my word for it... ask a few members that I have encouraged to purchase or borrow data loggers about what they see going on in cooling humidors.

Lastly I am not criticizing your project at all. We are simply having an academic discussion of temperature controlled humidors. -Piggy

[warren516]

Mr Pig - thanks so much for your imput, it's greatly appreciated. I just need to hit the lottery, buy a new house, and get myself a very nice humidor.

[PigFish]

You are welcome amigo. Anytime I can help... if you can call it that; I will. Best, Piggy