Habanos s.a Update: End of week two.

[kjellfrick]

I guess you were ok with the goverment of Cuba stealing the farms from men who had spent their entire lives building up the industry. Those folks are now forced to make there cigar elsewhere. Don't tell me a about tradition, for the tradition ended with communism.

Stealing land and property is a great tradition pursued by many a great nation. Invasion, subjugation and integration (or extermination) is the name of the game.

[CanuckSARTech]

Governments, and governing systems, come and go;

Habanos remain Habanos.

This was true under Spanish colonialism, under American occupation,

under American-supported dictatorships, and under Castro's Communism.

This too shall pass,

and Habanos will remain Habanos.

Very, VERY well put Ron.

[CanuckSARTech]

Great post Ron

On the news front all relatively quiet which is just the way they want it. Movements should be announced in the next few weeks. and there is likely to be a surprise.

Lisa is going to be heading up H S.A., with Ken Gargett as her Secretary????

[CanuckSARTech]

I love cuban cigars, they are the best in the world, that saying... At least in the American market there is none of this stupid bullshit, you never have to worry about.... Fakes, grey market, and prices that are through the roof. I hate communism. Hopefully this thing gets solved. I will say that the cigars that are coming out of Cuba right now are amazing...taste, construction

The American market is loaded with overpriced,

highly advertised cigars of dubious quality,

produced under Capitalism.

Most Non-Cuban cigars are produced in other countries, not the US! I agree that cubans produce the best cigars in the world, no agument there. I try to enjoy different cigars from around the world. I have been able to develope a nice regional pallete for cigars. Please stop the snobery, it's good to try different things. I'm just tired of the stupid embargo here in the States! It's hard for us to enjoy good cubans, plus there is a chance you could get fake or gray market cigars.

I guess you were ok with the goverment of Cuba stealing the farms from men who had spent their entire lives building up the industry. Those folks are now forced to make there cigar elsewhere. Don't tell me a about tradition, for the tradition ended with communism.

Tarks had some great comments to your post also.

Whether a cigar was produced in the U.S. or not, if they're not produced under communism in Cuba, they're basically being produced under capitalism in other countries. This can too easily devolve into a debate over capitalism over communism [Edit - and upon re-reading my post, I fear I have done so anyways myself]. No system is perfect, and both have their inherent and major flaws.

It seems that all your points, Jman, center around the crutch of things - U.S. involvement. The embargo is the U.S.' doing. The grey market and high prices of Cuban cigars would not necessarily be the way it is, especially with the proliferation of fakes, if it wasn't for the American market for these Cuban cigars. To say that there is none of these things with non-Cuban cigar market is absurd - just look for example at the anti-counterfeiting measures that the Padrons have had to put in place on their Serie 1926 and 1964 cigars (double bands, individualized numbers, etc.) That's the cigars - the negative aspects of Castro's regime and the communist government wouldn't be in place as it was if it wasn't for the U.S.' policies - both prior to, during, and after, the Cuban revolution. It was the American's who propped up Batista, and it was the rampant American capitalist-frenzied policies of the 30's, 40's, 50's and on, that led to the American leeching of many things in the Latin American world, and led to the communist policies and revolutions that took place in the 60's and onwards in Latin America.

No, nothing that anyone said has make it okay with what the Cuban government did during the revolution taking the farms of the people. But their rationale at the time was that they were absorbing anything that had to do with the "corruption" of the U.S. involvement of the previous years under Batista and before. Some of those innocent tobacco farmers had heavy connections under Batista and the Americans - and the sentiment at the time, right or wrong, was that the government would take their lands. Many fled (Padrons, etc.), and many stayed (Robainas, etc.). There is nothing black or white in there - it sucks for all involved, but hindsight is 20/20. Same thing with some things that the U.S. has done (in Cuba and other countries), and for my country of Canada as well (there are no flawless, innocent countries/policies).

BUT.....just because someone loves a product that comes from the people of that country, you cannot brandish the "I hate communism" brush and state that all tradition ended with the start of communism. Absolutely not. Habanos cigars have been a staple for many since the 18th century (and longer, on a smaller scale), and everything with the process has remained relatively unchanged and traditional over those years.

To state that lovers of this are exhibiting "snobbery" is ridiculous - many of us have tried (and some continually enjoy) other forms of cigars, not just Cubans.

That all said, this is a Habanos / Cuban cigar forum, for fans and lovers of that product. This is not a politically motivated or supporting forum. It's about this particular product, and the love of the process and history of that particular product that's led it to be what it is today - a collection and plethora of unique pieces of hand-made artwork, that is made to be consumed and enjoyed.

[MontrealRon]

The American market is loaded with overpriced,

highly advertised cigars of dubious quality,

produced under Capitalism.

Most Non-Cuban cigars are produced in other countries, not the US! I agree that cubans produce the best cigars in the world, no agument there. I try to enjoy different cigars from around the world. I have been able to develope a nice regional pallete for cigars. Please stop the snobery, it's good to try different things. I'm just tired of the stupid embargo here in the States! It's hard for us to enjoy good cubans, plus there is a chance you could get fake or gray market cigars.

I guess you were ok with the goverment of Cuba stealing the farms from men who had spent their entire lives building up the industry. Those folks are now forced to make there cigar elsewhere. Don't tell me a about tradition, for the tradition ended with communism.

Where did I say that most NC cigars are produced in the US?

I stated that they were produced under Capitalism,

an economic system now nearly universal on this planet.

I also, and many others on this board, enjoy trying cigars from all over the world.

No snobbery here.

Still, this is the "Friends of Habanos", after all,

and our general partiality to Cuban smokes should be self-evident.

I spent my first few years as a cigar smoker buying mostly NCs,

as Cuban cigars, while legal here in Canada, are expensive due to high local taxation,

and I visited the US frequently, long before starting to vacation in Cuba.

I come to my conclusions through experience, not pre-conceived notions.

You are not alone in your displeasure with the embargo.

Still, thousands of US smokers, many of whom oppose this law on principle,

have found ways to get around the embargo,

and have found trusted sources for first class, genuine, and reasonably priced Cuban cigars.

Don't forget, though, that it was not the Cuban government that imposed this law on the US.

Let's place the blame for the continuation of the embargo where it belongs -

on the battle between two US political parties for the support of the Cuban exile community.

Principled opposition to Communism has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

The US had no problem trading with Stalin and Mao, after all,

and US citizens could always visit the USSR and Red China.

As to the question of the expropriations of land and businesses by the Castro government,

the morality of these actions is not so black and white.

Before the revolution, all the cigar factories that were not controlled by American corporations

were owned by a few very wealthy local families.

This was also true of all of Cuba's industries.

The vast majority of farmland, including the tobacco vegas,

was not owned by those who worked the land, but by a tiny class of mostly absentee landlords.

The peasant farmers were treated like serfs, and the urban workers lived miserably.

Malnutrition, illiteracy, low life expectancy, lack of access to clean water or medical care,

institutionalized racism, rampant prostitution, this was the norm.

Using the criteria of the greatest good to the greatest number,

the Cuban revolution has been a great success.

Whether it has now run its course is another question,

but if you want an idea of what Havana might be like today had the revolution never happened,

then take a visit to Kingston, Jamaica or Port-au-Prince, Haiti. If you dare!

It was not Sr. Cifuentes, the former owner of Partagas,

who taught the peasants of the Vuelta Abajo how to grow and process tobacco,

nor the city factory workers the many trades involved in cigar production.

These skills, collectively known as the Cuban cigar tradition,

have been developed, passed down, and refined over generations.

The process of refinement still goes on today.

[MontrealRon]

Thanks, Kjellfrick, Tarks and Keith for your supportive posts,

which I missed while composing my own reply.

I would have been a lot less windy since most of my points had already been so well made...

[jman]

Good conversion, all of you make fantastic points. Happy smoking everyone, I challege you to try some cigars other that Cuban, some are pretty amazing.

[El Presidente]

I challege you to try some cigars other that Cuban, some are pretty amazing.

Most of us do on a regular basis.

[mykeuva]

....but if you want an idea of what Havana might be like today had the revolution never happened,

then take a visit to Kingston, Jamaica or Port-au-Prince, Haiti. If you dare! ....

Not to jump in to a political discussion, but I just want to point out that your thought experiment isn't really true of the situation at the time.

The Cuban people, on the whole, were always well educated (compared to the same populations in Haiti and Jamaica), before and after the revolution. The Cuban people were ahead, in terms of literacy/education, of comparable people in Haiti and Jamaica. Spanish colonialism had a pretty poor record in education in Cuba. The American takeover improved things, as did the revolution. As an example, I have read that the literacy rate in Cuba was around 16% in 1899, 40% in 1902, and had climbed to 72% in 1931. But who knows what the rate of improvement would have been without the revolution. To suggest that we can look to Haiti or Jamaica as an example of what Cuba would have turned out to be if not for Communism misses a basic truth.

That being said, cigars can be great from a variety of places, and I hope for the Cuban people that honesty and the rule of law take the day.

[Trevor2118]

Not to jump in to a political discussion, but .................................

I think this thread has been hijacked by that old cheatnut . . . political discussion

The thread actually is about "whats happening at Habanos SA".

[jman]

getting ready to smoke a BBF Nov LRE 09. I love Cubans, just trying to get a conversation going, Happy smoking

[tdlfoto]

You are not alone in your displeasure with the embargo.

Still, thousands of US smokers, many of whom oppose this law on principle,

have found ways to get around the embargo,

and have found trusted sources for first class, genuine, and reasonably priced Cuban cigars.

Don't forget, though, that it was not the Cuban government that imposed this law on the US.

Let's place the blame for the continuation of the embargo where it belongs -

on the battle between two US political parties for the support of the Cuban exile community.

Principled opposition to Communism has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

The US had no problem trading with Stalin and Mao, after all,

and US citizens could always visit the USSR and Red China.

As to the question of the expropriations of land and businesses by the Castro government,

the morality of these actions is not so black and white.

Before the revolution, all the cigar factories that were not controlled by American corporations

were owned by a few very wealthy local families.

This was also true of all of Cuba's industries.

The vast majority of farmland, including the tobacco vegas,

was not owned by those who worked the land, but by a tiny class of mostly absentee landlords.

The peasant farmers were treated like serfs, and the urban workers lived miserably.

Malnutrition, illiteracy, low life expectancy, lack of access to clean water or medical care,

institutionalized racism, rampant prostitution, this was the norm.

Using the criteria of the greatest good to the greatest number,

the Cuban revolution has been a great success.

Whether it has now run its course is another question,

but if you want an idea of what Havana might be like today had the revolution never happened,

then take a visit to Kingston, Jamaica or Port-au-Prince, Haiti. If you dare!

wow, some of the best reading i've done on FoH. well-thought commentary.