Big loss for queensland

[Vinny]

Prez, now this hurts doesn't it?

Too bad you guys lost him as it would have been a key player to rebuild on...

But why is he goin' to the tahs?!? isn't it like the worst team to go when you're from queensland?!?

Ouch!

[asmith]

No great loss really. Barnes is injury prone, to small to tackle, has no heart and is a league defect anyway. So the Tahs can have him. I hear that Thurston and Prince are coming to the Reds next year, so it's a perfect outcome.

[El Presidente]

Vinny we are happy to see the back of him.

As a leader he is woeful. His head is continually down berrating fellow players. He doesn't as much inspire as expire a side. He is injury prone, big headed, short of talent and loves a dollar. The Tah's are perfect for him

[asmith]

I'm hearing you mate. My planes delayed and I'm angry and I blame Barnes for this crap. I hate players who wear head-gear. I have also heard he smokes Non-Cubans. Enough said!

[El Presidente]

My planes delayed and I'm angry

oops....I should have delayed my other post

[Vinny]

I see. well the most I've seen from Barnes was against France since 2007, like 5 games I guess. I found him pretty good when attacking the line, but hey it's France (no misunderstanding, I'm 50% french)

so I'm happy that the tahs got him if he's a cocky player, I hate the tahs... But I'm a Bulls and sharks fan so doesn't really change a thing for me.

But Smithy, I wear head-gear.... but smoke cubans, is that fine then

[ARRV]

so I'm happy that the tahs got him if he's a cocky player, I hate the tahs... But I'm a Bulls and sharks fan so doesn't really change a thing for me.

Bulls and Sharks fan? Isn't that like supporting chastity and pre-marital sex?

As for the rest of you. Have a whinge about the Tahs. Barnes is simply coming to Sydney to fulfil his potential - just not quite sure as what though .....

Will the Reds even be able to field a team next year? Seems like everyone has left. Somebody should turn the lights off at Ballymore as they leave

[El Presidente]

Bulls and Sharks fan? Isn't that like supporting chastity and pre-marital sex?

As for the rest of you. Have a whinge about the Tahs. Barnes is simply coming to Sydney to fulfil his potential - just not quite sure as what though .....

Will the Reds even be able to field a team next year? Seems like everyone has left. Somebody should turn the lights off at Ballymore as they leave

What the Reds need to do is declare bankruptcy (Like the Tah's have done twice) so that they are bailed out by the ARU. A clean out of management is required (no doubt).

Let the ARU deal with the mess of the No 2 (possibly No 1) Rugby Union Market in Australia going to seed. Let's see how much money they get from the next Foxtel contract. Morons.

You reap what you sow. Currrently they are ploughing two fields only, Sydney and Canberra.

[Ken Gargett]

Prez, now this hurts doesn't it?

Too bad you guys lost him as it would have been a key player to rebuild on...

But why is he goin' to the tahs?!? isn't it like the worst team to go when you're from queensland?!?

Ouch!

i have only just noticed this post.

as for barnes, good riddance. a spineless, no-heart, bleeding blouse. he has shown his true colours and we are better off without such traitorous, moneygrubbing, grab what you can, pondscum. the sort that couldn't even spell loyalty, let alone show any. the reds will never recover while they operate as a sheltered workshop for injury prone wannabees like him. seriously, the bloke would come off injured if his hair was out of place. ABSOLUTELY no ticker. he and his ilk should go immediately. his departure is something all true reds fans should celebrate.

if you want to know what sort of bloke he is, he signed a one year deal with nsw. why only one year? because i strongly suspect the devious little grub has already done the dirty on them and agreed to go to the next super 14 franchise.

and think of it this way - if you were in the wallabies and on the field mid game and in a blue with the all blacks, do you think barnes is the sort of bloke who'd be in there to help, to back you up? he'd be too busy looking for his comb.

he should be told in no uncertain terms that he is never welcome back at the reds.

and if mccaw and his mates can get him at the bottom of a ruck (not that he has ever been seen near the tough stuff), i hope they tear him to peices. i would put on a black jersey to see that.

and as for nsw, as i told some mates yesterday (and sadly players like barnes can't understand this), there is no team on the planet that i would not support against them. if the dallas cowboys, manchester united and collingwood merged and formed a rugby team, i'd support them before nsw. i would support the bin laden XV if they played nsw. i support every yarpie and kiwi team that ever plays nsw.

the fact that we got so badly thrashed by canturbury earlier this year meant that nsw missed the super 14 final on a for and against by just four points, was the highlight of the season.

i might add that recruiting that sort of player - barnes - is why, and i know that nsw can never understand this as for them it is just a game, they will never overcome the white hats in the long run. despite their massively overwhelming population base, queensland has regularly thumped them at things like state of origin. and for the last couple of decades at rugby when it was about pride in your state, yourself and your mates and not how much you could get for yourself.

most of nsw don't get this and that is why the forces of truth and goodness will always eventually overcome the sewer harpies that lurk in blue jerseys and, even worse, those that would sell their soul to join them.

[ARRV]

What the Reds need to do is declare bankruptcy (Like the Tah's have done twice) so that they are bailed out by the ARU. A clean out of management is required (no doubt).

Let the ARU deal with the mess of the No 2 (possibly No 1) Rugby Union Market in Australia going to seed. Let's see how much money they get from the next Foxtel contract. Morons.

You reap what you sow. Currrently they are ploughing two fields only, Sydney and Canberra.

Those fields are not going to be particularly fertile either if there is not some change. Especially with the rules as they presently stand.

To me anyway it seems that the game has became a case of high ball and chase. At least in the old days if you could pass back to the 22 and kick out there was a contest at the following lineout - and thus probably less kicking because when a party kicks from their 22 then chances are the lineout will be around the half way (give or take 10m) and a team would have to be mad or Australian to kick possession away if they won that lineout in that part of the field. Instead you run it. Now instead kicks are aimed at landing just outside the 22 with the return kick being a high ball lottery followed by another kick etc etc etc. The entire Sth African game plan is based upon up and unders by the half-back and speedy wingers chasing hoping for a mistake. That and foul play by their forwards..

The Tahs management is amateurish with the crowds last year being well down and next year is unlikely to be any better unless they can win and win well. Just wait for them to lose a couple of games next year and then the knives will be out for the coach and the wheels will fall off. However there is a basically decent pack there so who knows it might work out ok but certainly not going to threaten the big teams.

In terms of the ARU letting Qld go - as I understand it the players are centrally contracted and then the state unions get to top up any contract to convince players to play for that state. The ARU should really ensure a fair distribution of talent - maybe a salary cap style mechanism to ensure that all the states are strong. NSW is probably at its peak in terms of winter sports market share - realistically it is not going to increase vs soccer and league. So they do need Qld as a nursery and also because it seems that most of Australia is slowly moving to Qld (god help us).

Instead they will probably focus on Melbourne and wonder why Qld is not doing well

[ARRV]

i have only just noticed this post.

as for barnes, good riddance. a spineless, no-heart, bleeding blouse. he has shown his true colours and we are better off without such traitorous, moneygrubbing, grab what you can, pondscum. the sort that couldn't even spell loyalty, let alone show any. the reds will never recover while they operate as a sheltered workshop for injury prone wannabees like him. seriously, the bloke would come off injured if his hair was out of place. ABSOLUTELY no ticker. he and his ilk should go immediately. his departure is something all true reds fans should celebrate.

if you want to know what sort of bloke he is, he signed a one year deal with nsw. why only one year? because i strongly suspect the devious little grub has already done the dirty on them and agreed to go to the next super 14 franchise.

and think of it this way - if you were in the wallabies and on the field mid game and in a blue with the all blacks, do you think barnes is the sort of bloke who'd be in there to help, to back you up? he'd be too busy looking for his comb.

he should be told in no uncertain terms that he is never welcome back at the reds.

and if mccaw and his mates can get him at the bottom of a ruck (not that he has ever been seen near the tough stuff), i hope they tear him to peices. i would put on a black jersey to see that.

and as for nsw, as i told some mates yesterday (and sadly players like barnes can't understand this), there is no team on the planet that i would not support against them. if the dallas cowboys, manchester united and collingwood merged and formed a rugby team, i'd support them before nsw. i would support the bin laden XV if they played nsw. i support every yarpie and kiwi team that ever plays nsw.

the fact that we got so badly thrashed by canturbury earlier this year meant that nsw missed the super 14 final on a for and against by just four points, was the highlight of the season.

i might add that recruiting that sort of player - barnes - is why, and i know that nsw can never understand this as for them it is just a game, they will never overcome the white hats in the long run. despite their massively overwhelming population base, queensland has regularly thumped them at things like state of origin. and for the last couple of decades at rugby when it was about pride in your state, yourself and your mates and not how much you could get for yourself.

most of nsw don't get this and that is why the forces of truth and goodness will always eventually overcome the sewer harpies that lurk in blue jerseys and, even worse, those that would sell their soul to join them.

Look I understand the bitterness that years of being flogged by the Tahs must have created. It's OK. We forgive you, it's not your fault.

[Ken Gargett]

The ARU should really ensure a fair distribution of talent - maybe a salary cap style mechanism to ensure that all the states are strong. NSW is probably at its peak in terms of winter sports market share - realistically it is not going to increase vs soccer and league. So they do need Qld as a nursery and also because it seems that most of Australia is slowly moving to Qld (god help us).

one quick point here - you have not mentioned the threat from afl. it is managing to keep a much cleaner profile than league for example - god knows how with grubs like cousins and a good few more, and i'll be very interested to see if the lions play albert proud this weekend: guilty of glassing women in a pub is a little more serious than some pissed idiot crapping in a broomcloset - and for those that don't want to play soccer and are put off league or rugby, for whatever reason, it is a desirable alternative. also, they have convinced the world that there is no problem being part of an afl crowd whereas many fans would no more go and be part of a league crowd than sit in a prison waiting room.

for me, the defection of hunt to afl (and i have no problem with that from loyalty terms as he has put in at club, state and international level and made his intentions to leave league very clear) is for me, a much bigger blow to rugby (who assumed that they were going to get him) than it is to league.

if afl doesn't work for him, be very interesting to see where he goes next.

[ARRV]

one quick point here - you have not mentioned the threat from afl. it is managing to keep a much cleaner profile than league for example - god knows how with grubs like cousins and a good few more, and i'll be very interested to see if the lions play albert proud this weekend: guilty of glassing women in a pub is a little more serious than some pissed idiot crapping in a broomcloset - and for those that don't want to play soccer and are put off league or rugby, for whatever reason, it is a desirable alternative. also, they have convinced the world that there is no problem being part of an afl crowd whereas many fans would no more go and be part of a league crowd than sit in a prison waiting room.

for me, the defection of hunt to afl (and i have no problem with that from loyalty terms as he has put in at club, state and international level and made his intentions to leave league very clear) is for me, a much bigger blow to rugby (who assumed that they were going to get him) than it is to league.

if afl doesn't work for him, be very interesting to see where he goes next.

For some reason I just do not think that AFL is as big a threat but maybe that is simple myopia. I have heard that the Auskick program is well funded and is slowly and insidiously invading the eastern states but I think that the big problem for them is that AFL doesn't seem to be played in schools here or up north (true?). So there is a distinct lack of familiarity with it from the majority of the population.

Obviously the move of Hunt to AFL is huge news here but is really being portrayed as a publicity stunt by the new team on the Gold Coast.

Aren't there build and size problems for him to move over - to me AFL players have marathon runners builds and rugby players aren't that build.

Maybe the ARU wasn't chasing him that hard - plenty of outside backs floating around. Now if they could only steal some Yarpie props then we might be in business!

[Ken Gargett]

Look I understand the bitterness that years of being flogged by the Tahs must have created. It's OK. We forgive you, it's not your fault.

may i suggest that you check the records for the last 3 or 4 decades. granted you've won a couple of interstate games in the last two or three years but either you are a very recent convert to rugby and have no idea of what has been happening for year after year after thoroughly enjoyable year, or, like most nsw fans (i simply refuse to refer to them by that absurd nickname they have given themselves), are completely delusional.

the tragic thing is that i have strong suspicions that, even though i have no doubt turth and justice will prevail in the long term, it may be several decades of hell for reds' fans.

the only small kernel of joy we will glean from any time in the wilderness is that we know that nsw, although they may finish higher on the table than us, will never win a super 14 title - they simply don't have it in them. if your blokes, even half a dozen of them, had half the pride that phil waugh has in the jersey then you'd already have three or four titles. but they don't and they cannot understand why and therefore comdemn themselves to the mediocrity that is nsw rugby. and they will continue to try and put together a team on imports, cross-overs and those that they can entice with the dollar. that will never build a winning team. perhaps a team that will occasionally win but not the title. and they have proved that.

if you doubt that nsw lack the same pride and drive and commitment as (true) reds, about a decade ago i was in sydney for the game and in the president's tent post match. it was, as it always is, a game that nsw expected to win easily. and they had pretty much won it on paper before we started. inevitably, we won it. my mates etc (nsw fans) and i went straight around to the tent. took us a few minutes to get there after full time. and yet, there, in the tent and drinking and laughing with sponsors, was the nsw coach. looked like he'd been for a nice day at the beach, not as though he'd lost the most important game of the year. i was speechless. why the hell was he not ripping into his players for an appalling performance? he'd left them alone and didn't seem to care.

i still don't get it but it summed up nsw rugby for me.

[Ken Gargett]

For some reason I just do not think that AFL is as big a threat but maybe that is simple myopia. I have heard that the Auskick program is well funded and is slowly and insidiously invading the eastern states but I think that the big problem for them is that AFL doesn't seem to be played in schools here or up north (true?). So there is a distinct lack of familiarity with it from the majority of the population.

Obviously the move of Hunt to AFL is huge news here but is really being portrayed as a publicity stunt by the new team on the Gold Coast.

Aren't there build and size problems for him to move over - to me AFL players have marathon runners builds and rugby players aren't that build.

Maybe the ARU wasn't chasing him that hard - plenty of outside backs floating around. Now if they could only steal some Yarpie props then we might be in business!

hunt is not the sort of player to just go in for publicity. he is tough, highly talented, extremely courageous. he is not a great kick but there will be a lot of afl players who will get the shock of their lives when he hits them. and he will have no fear going into a pack, flying high or on the ground. he is potentially a superstar.

as for schools, i grew up at sherwood - a brizzy suburb, an old suburb that is mid to inner city. at sherwood state school, we played aussie rules. no other choice and same applies for quite a few other local schools. i had no idea what rugby or league were for a while. i had mates in my class go on to play in the perth comp and also (shame) for collingwood.

after i left sherwood, went to churchie - definitely a rugby school and the same one hunt went to much later - there was no aussie rules there at the time but i am told there is now and hunt played it. one kid who was a few years behind me at school was a kid called jason dunstall.

the impact of winning three flags as they did, and again this year as they build for another tilt (not this year realistically but do not be surprised if the lions have another flag in 2 to 3) has been huge. as you suggest, lot of people moving to brizzzy/qld and many come from aussie rules states. especially so on the coast so i think that the team there has a good chance of success. better than west sydney.

and the afl has had the brains to ensure free to air coverage. i watch the lions almost every weekend. love settling in with a good rum and a double corona to see out the game. rugby has tests only. if a kid sees a few tests compared with regular weekend games, what do you think will happen?

afl is a serious threat - not in the sense that a lot of players will follow hunt (though i believe that one high profile local afl team had a very serious look at a high flying, freak of a currently injured league winger a few years back). more that a lot of kids will choose it ahead of rugby.

[ARRV]

may i suggest that you check the records for the last 3 or 4 decades. granted you've won a couple of interstate games in the last two or three years but either you are a very recent convert to rugby and have no idea of what has been happening for year after year after thoroughly enjoyable year, or, like most nsw fans (i simply refuse to refer to them by that absurd nickname they have given themselves), are completely delusional.

the tragic thing is that i have strong suspicions that, even though i have no doubt turth and justice will prevail in the long term, it may be several decades of hell for reds' fans.

the only small kernel of joy we will glean from any time in the wilderness is that we know that nsw, although they may finish higher on the table than us, will never win a super 14 title - they simply don't have it in them. if your blokes, even half a dozen of them, had half the pride that phil waugh has in the jersey then you'd already have three or four titles. but they don't and they cannot understand why and therefore comdemn themselves to the mediocrity that is nsw rugby. and they will continue to try and put together a team on imports, cross-overs and those that they can entice with the dollar. that will never build a winning team. perhaps a team that will occasionally win but not the title. and they have proved that.

if you doubt that nsw lack the same pride and drive and commitment as (true) reds, about a decade ago i was in sydney for the game and in the president's tent post match. it was, as it always is, a game that nsw expected to win easily. and they had pretty much won it on paper before we started. inevitably, we won it. my mates etc (nsw fans) and i went straight around to the tent. took us a few minutes to get there after full time. and yet, there, in the tent and drinking and laughing with sponsors, was the nsw coach. looked like he'd been for a nice day at the beach, not as though he'd lost the most important game of the year. i was speechless. why the hell was he not ripping into his players for an appalling performance? he'd left them alone and didn't seem to care.

i still don't get it but it summed up nsw rugby for me.

I think in NSW that they cannot work out whether or not they are running a marketing business first and rugby team second or a rugby team first and business second. With the organisation teetering in and out of insolvency over the past few years it's clear that they're not running either particularly well.

Rugby first and the business success follows. Maybe they'll get there.

As for the past successes of the reds, wasn't it only recently that NSW agreed to play them again - from memory there were a couple of years there when we didn't think they were good enough to warrant a game

[El Presidente]

hunt is not the sort of player to just go in for publicity. he is tough, highly talented, extremely courageous. he is not a great kick but there will be a lot of afl players who will get the shock of their lives when he hits them. and he will have no fear going into a pack, flying high or on the ground. he is potentially a superstar.

as for schools, i grew up at sherwood - a brizzy suburb, an old suburb that is mid to inner city. at sherwood state school, we played aussie rules. no other choice and same applies for quite a few other local schools. i had no idea what rugby or league were for a while. i had mates in my class go on to play in the perth comp and also (shame) for collingwood.

after i left sherwood, went to churchie - definitely a rugby school and the same one hunt went to much later - there was no aussie rules there at the time but i am told there is now and hunt played it. one kid who was a few years behind me at school was a kid called jason dunstall.

the impact of winning three flags as they did, and again this year as they build for another tilt (not this year realistically but do not be surprised if the lions have another flag in 2 to 3) has been huge. as you suggest, lot of people moving to brizzzy/qld and many come from aussie rules states. especially so on the coast so i think that the team there has a good chance of success. better than west sydney.

and the afl has had the brains to ensure free to air coverage. i watch the lions almost every weekend. love settling in with a good rum and a double corona to see out the game. rugby has tests only. if a kid sees a few tests compared with regular weekend games, what do you think will happen?

afl is a serious threat - not in the sense that a lot of players will follow hunt (though i believe that one high profile local afl team had a very serious look at a high flying, freak of a currently injured league winger a few years back). more that a lot of kids will choose it ahead of rugby.

[ARRV]

hunt is not the sort of player to just go in for publicity. he is tough, highly talented, extremely courageous. he is not a great kick but there will be a lot of afl players who will get the shock of their lives when he hits them. and he will have no fear going into a pack, flying high or on the ground. he is potentially a superstar.

as for schools, i grew up at sherwood - a brizzy suburb, an old suburb that is mid to inner city. at sherwood state school, we played aussie rules. no other choice and same applies for quite a few other local schools. i had no idea what rugby or league were for a while. i had mates in my class go on to play in the perth comp and also (shame) for collingwood.

after i left sherwood, went to churchie - definitely a rugby school and the same one hunt went to much later - there was no aussie rules there at the time but i am told there is now and hunt played it. one kid who was a few years behind me at school was a kid called jason dunstall.

the impact of winning three flags as they did, and again this year as they build for another tilt (not this year realistically but do not be surprised if the lions have another flag in 2 to 3) has been huge. as you suggest, lot of people moving to brizzzy/qld and many come from aussie rules states. especially so on the coast so i think that the team there has a good chance of success. better than west sydney.

and the afl has had the brains to ensure free to air coverage. i watch the lions almost every weekend. love settling in with a good rum and a double corona to see out the game. rugby has tests only. if a kid sees a few tests compared with regular weekend games, what do you think will happen?

afl is a serious threat - not in the sense that a lot of players will follow hunt (though i believe that one high profile local afl team had a very serious look at a high flying, freak of a currently injured league winger a few years back). more that a lot of kids will choose it ahead of rugby.

Wasn't sure that AFL had that impact at school level - certainly not the case down here. Well you're right then that is a real problem.

And I agree re free to air - they should get the Super 14 or whatever its latest manifestation is on free to air and then people might actually start to watch it again. I also thought that the Australian provincial rugby comp they had on a year or so ago and then scrapped was very good - they certainly need something to be played at a decent level at test time.

[El Presidente]

And I thought Rugby League players were dumb sons of *******.

Hunt gets $925,000 a season. Clause in contract that club and player can mutually walk away if it doesn't work out subject to payout of 50% of contract within first 18 months. Gold Coast team will make that with bums on seats in opening five home games + corporate sponsors. They missed out on every major AFL signing they were chasing. Desperate.

Bronco's offered $350,000.

Tah's $500, 000

Japan, $600,000

England $700,000

He has played (confirmed by Richard Champion this morning) 8 games of AFL. He was a star at Churchie (not a powerhouse AFL school by any means).

He is so committed to AFL he is taking up a Japan contract for 6 months in 2010 for $600,000. No time learning the new AFL trade, no doubt in his mind he can learn it in 8 months intensive training when he gets back.

Hunt is shortly to be the highest paid team sporstman in Australia. Hats off!

Beautifully executed and if all comes to crap he will be 26 with another $3m + under his belt.

[ARRV]

And I thought Rugby League players were dumb sons of *******.

Hunt gets $925,000 a season. Clause in contract that club and player can mutually walk away if it doesn't work out subject to payout of 50% of contract within first 18 months. Gold Coast team will make that with bums on seats in opening five home games + corporate sponsors. They missed out on every major AFL signing they were chasing. Desperate.

Bronco's offered $350,000.

Tah's $500, 000

Japan, $600,000

England $700,000

He has played (confirmed by Richard Champion this morning) 8 games of AFL. He was a star at Churchie (not a powerhouse AFL school by any means).

He is so committed to AFL he is taking up a Japan contract for 6 months in 2010 for $600,000. No time learning the new AFL trade, no doubt in his mind he can learn it in 8 months intensive training when he gets back.

Hunt is shortly to be the highest paid team sporstman in Australia. Hats off!

Beautifully executed and if all comes to crap he will be 26 with another $3m + under his belt.

That is some good money with a get out of jail free card

Surely that has to be a stunt by the Gold Coast team - but I guess good luck to them both especially if it rains cash

[Ken Gargett]

As for the past successes of the reds, wasn't it only recently that NSW agreed to play them again - from memory there were a couple of years there when we didn't think they were good enough to warrant a game

the most stupid thing nsw ever did.

i think it was in the early 70's where you'd beaten us solidly. there was a threat not to play us but it didn't come to anything, other than to really piss off qld and set in motion the next three decades of thumpings.

shaw, loane, mclean etc so pissed that they decided it was time to do something so in conjunction with qld admin, then an extremely good admin, we started with the games against new zealand sides. within a year or two of nsw threatening not to play us, there we all were at ballymore chanting the famous 'we want 50' - i think it was a 48-4 thrashing in the days when tries were still worth 3, possibly 4, points. must have been four as i remember how angry loane was when nsw finally scored. and the reds have never looked back until now.

[El Presidente]

Wasn't sure that AFL had that impact at school level - certainly not the case down here. Well you're right then that is a real problem.

And I agree re free to air - they should get the Super 14 or whatever its latest manifestation is on free to air and then people might actually start to watch it again. I also thought that the Australian provincial rugby comp they had on a year or so ago and then scrapped was very good - they certainly need something to be played at a decent level at test time.

ARRV, ARU had 48 Million in the bank after Aussie world cup. Now down to $4m. Australian Provincial Rugby Comp cost them $8m. Great comp but one more season and they would be broke.

O'neil sold the soul of rugby when it was determined to be a cable sport only. My son plays A grade 15's and he is fortunate we have cable. How many kids miss out? I can tell you plenty.

I would love to write a thesis on the downfall of Rugby in Oz. Having been invoved at the grass roots for so long I simply shake my head at the incompetence.

[bunburyist]

I would love to write a thesis on the downfall of Rugby in Oz. Having been invoved at the grass roots for so long I simply shake my head at the incompetence.

Don't you find these things are cyclical? Outside of NZ and South Africa, where it's the national sport, countries like Australia, England, France, Ireland etc tend to go through peaks and troughs as and when great players seem to come along together.

The All Blacks and Boks consistently get the top atheletes from those nations going into Union. I'm not sure, but in Oz isn't Union behind at least Aussie Rules and League in terms of popularity?

In England, I'd say that about a 1/4 of schools actually play rugby, and in the north it's mostly League anyway. Result being, about once every 10-15 years you get a great team. Who now in the Wallabies would get into the 1991 team of Horan, Campese, Lynagh, Farr-Jones, Eales? Or from the current England side into the 2003 team? 1, 2....none?

I'm not saying investment and sound management doesn't play a part, but there's a good deal of natural see-sawing as well. All you can really do is provide the facilities and hope those kids who enjoy the game don't drift into other sports.

[Ken Gargett]

Don't you find these things are cyclical? Outside of NZ and South Africa, where it's the national sport, countries like Australia, England, France, Ireland etc tend to go through peaks and troughs as and when great players seem to come along together.

The All Blacks and Boks consistently get the top atheletes from those nations going into Union. I'm not sure, but in Oz isn't Union behind at least Aussie Rules and League in terms of popularity?

In England, I'd say that about a 1/4 of schools actually play rugby, and in the north it's mostly League anyway. Result being, about once every 10-15 years you get a great team. Who now in the Wallabies would get into the 1991 team of Horan, Campese, Lynagh, Farr-Jones? Or from the current England side into the 2003 team? 1, 2....none?

I'm not saying investment and sound management doesn't play a part, but there's a good deal of natural see-sawing as well. All you can really do is provide the facilities and hope those kids who enjoy the game don't drift into other sports.

george smith would cerainly get into the 91 side. not too many others i suspect. the question should perhaps be why are we not producing more of these players? why is league? think thurston, inglis, slater, hunt, folau and quite a few others.

the point about rugby not free to air is huge and suggests utter incompetence in our administrators then and now not to have realised and rectified.

[bunburyist]

george smith would cerainly get into the 91 side. not too many others i suspect. the question should perhaps be why are we not producing more of these players? why is league? think thurston, inglis, slater, hunt, folau and quite a few others.

the point about rugby not free to air is huge and suggests utter incompetence in our administrators then and now not to have realised and rectified.

I think the general consensus outside of Oz is that you produce so many good League players because.....everyone else is so poor at it. League isn't even a top 5 sport in the UK, and only really NZ pay any attention to it. There's not really any competition - not really. Australia will get turned over a few times every decade by GB or NZ, but over the long haul it's just not in the same league (pun!). So of course the NRL will consistently produce the best - where else would they come from?

I'm have doubts about the influence of tv. Of course, the more exposure any sport gets the more people know about it, but.... you tend to play what's available when you're young. Build a new town, and fill it with swimming pools and tennis courts and in a few years that's what they'll be producing. On a recent trip though some housing project in Tianjin, China, I walked through a sea of concrete tennis tables amidst the tower blocks. Absolutely rammed with kids playing at 100mph, and it's a sport they dominate. Kids will play with what they have in front of them, not necessarily what's on tv.

That's my 2p anyway!