Best wines for investments and entertaining PART ONE

[Cam]

Just a small list I compiled paticularly for this forum, which wines to look for and which are looking promising for possible investments:

I have written this as a guide, I have also included some brandies and whiskeys, don't take this as what TO buy, it does, after all get layed in your cellar not mine!

Best modern vintage years for:

Champagne : 1982 -9, 1985 -9, 1988 -8, 1989 -9, 1990 -10, 1995 -8, 1996 -9, 1997 -8, 1998 -8, 1999 -8

Some better Champagnes : The 1990 is ready to drink now, you should look out for : Dom Ruinart, Veuve - La Grande Dame.

Bordeaux (red) : 1982 -10, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990 -10, 1995, 1996, 1998, 2000 -10, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 -10, 2006

Some better Bordeaux : 1982 (considered possibly the best vintage year since 1961) : Château Palmer Margaux, Château Léoville-Las-Cases St. Julien, Château Margaux, Château Mouton-Rothschild Pauillac.

1990 : Château Margaux - TO LOOK FOR, Château Latour, Château Mouton-Rothschild, Château Ducru-Beaucaillou St. Julien.

2000 (There are many wines of this year worth buying, I have included only a few) : Château Cardaillan, Graves, Château La Garde, Pessac Légnan, Château Langoa Barton, Saint Julien, Château Latour Pauillac.

2005 (All!) =) - Don't want to make any reccomendations yet, please stand by for the rest of the reccomendations, I will do all the best years for the rest of the French wines, then move on to Australian and American.

Cognacs :

Rémy Martin : LOUIS XIII, VSOP

Hennessey, Paradis Extra, XO, VS

Please feel free to add more, a more comprehensive "guides to cognac and brandies" is in the works at present

Whiskey : Please feel free to add more, a more comprehensive "guides to whiskies" is in the works at present

TASTING NOTES COME WEEKLY! IF YOU WANT A REVIEW ON A PATICULAR WINE PLEASE REQUEST.

[Ken Gargett]

i always find this sort of stuff fascionating and have a few thoughts. as soon as time later, might toss in some ideas. but it seems really close to what i think.

[Ken Gargett]

my first thought is the issue of investment. you've named a few older years here and i'm not sure how much legs investing in older vintages has. the younger ones, agreed. many of the older ones are probably at or near peak unless you are keeping them for another couple of decades. the other thing to note is that the curious way these things work, even though the 82's, agree with you there on how good they are, are fantastic mature wines, often younger vintages are higher cost to buy now. curious indeed.

the other issue is champagne re investing. other than really great years for wines like krug, cristal, sir winston, dom, salon and a few others, champagne is rarely a good way to go for wine investment. bordeaux is tried and proven (i think we'll be surprised by burgs before long and many italians are firing up). champagne rarely works well as an investment.

re the vintages for champers, i've done my thoughts following yours.

1982 -9, 1985 -9, agree with these two. two stunning years. best still going but many should probably have been drunk.

1988 -8, 1989 -9, 1990 -10, this trio probably most interesting as first time champagne had ever had three great years in a row. i made three trips there to check out the wines in the years following them and it was fascinating they way they ranked them in the region. first time, in 1993 so very soon after in champers time, was as you have it. second time, the feeling was 88 underrated and 89 overrated, though terrific stuff from all so they changed from 90, 89 88, in that order, to 90, 88 and 89. third time, they were starting to rank 88 with 90 and 89 falling away. my thoughts were that 89 a lovely big forward year but most probably past best (interestingly, krug released their 89 before the 88). 90 has been a cracker all along but i have to say, it has taken a long time but 88 for me has emerged as a truly classic brilliant year. i have not had an 88 that has not been brilliant for some time. i'd ahve 89 on 7/8 and both 88 and 90 on 10 but with the edge to 88. shame, as i have far more 90s.

1995 -8, 1996 -9, the next two cracker years. i'm convinced we'd be raving about 95 as one of the greats if it didn't fall into the shadow of 96. i'd go 9+. 1996, consensus has this as the greatest year since 1928 and i've seen nothing to disagree. if you give 90 10 out of 10, then this is 10 with a bullet. brilliant, brilliant year.

1997 -8, 1998 -8, 1999 -8. i'd be inclined to think that the next three are perhaps a touch generous. i'd be thinking 6 to 8 but the 8's restricted to individual wines. bolly in 97 (and not much else) etc etc. the 2002's will be the next great year from what i've seen.

bordeaux. i'm pretty much in line with this, without going into specific wines.

only two comments i'd make are that 98 is fabulous for right bank wines (the cheval balnc is a stunner) but less so for left bank and i'd be far less excited about 2002.

cognac, i claim little expertise but i'd add delamain.

look forward to your next installment.

,

» Just a small list I compiled paticularly for this forum, which wines to

» look for and which are looking promising for possible investments:

»

» I have written this as a guide, I have also included some brandies and

» whiskeys, don't take this as what TO buy, it does, after all get layed in

» your cellar not mine!

»

» Best modern vintage years for:

» Champagne : 1982 -9, 1985 -9, 1988 -8, 1989 -9, 1990 -10, 1995 -8,

» 1996 -9, 1997 -8, 1998 -8, 1999 -8

» Some better Champagnes : The 1990 is ready to drink now, you should look

» out for : Dom Ruinart, Veuve - La Grande Dame.

»

» Bordeaux (red) : 1982 -10, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990 -10,

» 1995, 1996, 1998, 2000 -10, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 -10, 2006

» Some better Bordeaux : 1982 (considered possibly the best vintage year

» since 1961) : Château Palmer Margaux, Château Léoville-Las-Cases St.

» Julien, Château Margaux, Château Mouton-Rothschild

» Pauillac.

» 1990 : Château Margaux - TO LOOK FOR, Château Latour,

» Château Mouton-Rothschild, Château Ducru-Beaucaillou St. Julien.

» 2000 (There are many wines of this year worth buying, I have included only

» a few) : Château Cardaillan, Graves, Château La Garde, Pessac Légnan,

» Château Langoa Barton, Saint Julien, Château Latour Pauillac.

» 2005 (All!) =) - Don't want to make any reccomendations yet, please stand

» by for the rest of the reccomendations, I will do all the best years for

» the rest of the French wines, then move on to Australian and American.

»

» Cognacs :

»

» Rémy Martin : LOUIS XIII, VSOP

» Hennessey, Paradis Extra, XO, VS

» Please feel free to add more, a more comprehensive "guides to cognac and

» brandies" is in the works at present

»

» Whiskey : Please feel free to add more, a more comprehensive "guides to

» whiskies" is in the works at present

»

» TASTING NOTES COME WEEKLY! IF YOU WANT A REVIEW ON A PATICULAR WINE

» PLEASE REQUEST.

[winelover]

» Cognacs :

»

» Rémy Martin : LOUIS XIII, VSOP

» Hennessey, Paradis Extra, XO, VS

» Please feel free to add more, a more comprehensive "guides to cognac and

» brandies" is in the works at present

Any views on any Armagnacs? I find them to be better value than Cognacs and I am unsure as yet if I prefer the taste. As they are less well-known, probably harder to sell to those not in the know.

[Cam]

um as for Armagnac :

I'll post a review topic soon! Just for you

Cam -

[Cam]

thanks for the additions Ken, I'll add my next installment tommorow, or this afternoon!!!!!

Cam -

[Jimmy2]

The market is WAYYYYYY over priced right now.

[Claudius]

» The market is WAYYYYYY over priced right now.

Absolutely. Close to 1,000 USD a bottle on certain wines is just ridiculous. Plus competition from the "new world"...

Good GCCs (2nd and 3rd or even 4th on the 1855 list) in good years are a worthwhile "investment" when bought young, but they tops of the tops are hit and miss depending on the years. People who buy 20 year old Cheval Blanc dont want it in a bad year, do they?

The initial poster has to be kidding me about the Hennesey XO and VS, they taste like cat piss (like the French say) these days. Not that they were that much better before...

[Ken Gargett]

» » The market is WAYYYYYY over priced right now.

»

» Absolutely. Close to 1,000 USD a bottle on certain wines is just

» ridiculous. Plus competition from the "new world"...

»

» Good GCCs (2nd and 3rd or even 4th on the 1855 list) in good years are a

» worthwhile "investment" when bought young, but they tops of the tops are

» hit and miss depending on the years. People who buy 20 year old Cheval

» Blanc dont want it in a bad year, do they?

agree re the comment about older poorer years but that said, saw highest ever auction case price for a wine was recently set by a case o 1967 DRC romanee-conti. now i do think that romanee-conti is the greatest wine on the planet but 67 an awaful year and yet it sets the new record. go figure?

[Jimmy2]

The main problem is people who are buying just because of the name but know nothing of a vintage year and bid away so it drive up the prices on all wine.

Also the HK buyers are spending money like water an are causing this over priced wine on the market.

My friend has been collecting for years before this boom and he has doubled his money and than some because of this over priced market.

He is a man with a big smile and FAT $$$$ because of this and he even said he never expected the market to go this crazy.

If he was to buy what he has now with today's prices you would need major major $$$$$$$$$ hundreds of thousands.

I you have your lucky but if you want stay away for now until it levels out.

[Claudius]

» agree re the comment about older poorer years but that said, saw highest

» ever auction case price for a wine was recently set by a case o 1967 DRC

» romanee-conti. now i do think that romanee-conti is the greatest wine on

» the planet but 67 an awaful year and yet it sets the new record. go

» figure?

Oh yeah? Wow... how much did it go for?

Never been a Burgundy fan (but then again I havent been educated by Burgundy fans either), may have to try the Romanée Conti again (it's been over a decade) if you say it's the best wine on the planet. What's drinking well or almost drinking well and closest to affordable (selling only one kidney)?

[Colt45]

Kind of reminds me of the cigar market (especially ELs and REs) - as long as people are willing

to pay, prices will keep escalating......

[Claudius]

» The main problem is people who are buying just because of the name but know

» nothing of a vintage year and bid away so it drive up the prices on all

» wine.

»

» Also the HK buyers are spending money like water an are causing this over

» priced wine on the market.

Yes, the Japanese buying the primeurs and the HK people buying the aged stuff doesnt help keep current production prices down, that's for sure. :-(

I just buy second vins or the odd case of GCC (never the As or 1ers but the good, affordable ones). Also a big fan of the Crus Bourgeois exceptionnels like Phélan Ségur. I dont like having to pay Cohiba money on a bottle of wine and then having to wait 15 or 20 years to drink it because of crazy people on other continents.

[Claudius]

» Kind of reminds me of the cigar market (especially ELs and REs) - as long

» as people are willing

» to pay, prices will keep escalating......

Imagine what would happen to prices if as many people smoked as they drink! Thank God it is becoming illegal everywhere to smoke in public. Soon enough, you will all (have to) quit and I, as Rob's only remaining customer, will be able to get cigars for even less! :-D Thank you, pharmaceutical lobby, corrupt politicians and ignorant smoke-hating nazis of this world, thank you!!! :-D :-D :-D

[Colt45]

» Thank you, pharmaceutical lobby, corrupt politicians and ignorant smoke-hating

» nazis of this world, thank you!!! :-D :-D :-D

In my eyes, it's something even worse - it's another way the malignancy of socialism is permeating our lives.

[Ken Gargett]

» » agree re the comment about older poorer years but that said, saw highest

» » ever auction case price for a wine was recently set by a case o 1967

» DRC

» » romanee-conti. now i do think that romanee-conti is the greatest wine

» on

» » the planet but 67 an awaful year and yet it sets the new record. go

» » figure?

»

» Oh yeah? Wow... how much did it go for?

»

» Never been a Burgundy fan (but then again I havent been educated by

» Burgundy fans either), may have to try the Romanée Conti again (it's been

» over a decade) if you say it's the best wine on the planet. What's

» drinking well or almost drinking well and closest to affordable (selling

» only one kidney)?

jimmy, i know exactly what you mean. i have old mates, as in older than me, that bought huge cellars over time years ago when the costs were nothing. one bloke bought some 50 cases of '63 vintage ports at $5 a bottle.

another something like 10 cases of drc la tache 1978 for around $60 a bottle.

searching the internet, the cheapest bottle of it on the planet seems to be in new york at $3,000. not a bad return, though we will be drinking the last one shortly.

drc romanee-conti would be at least $3k for the youngest you could find, a bottle, if you could find it. demand usually huge. i would think that when the 05 is released next year, it will be at least $5k a bottle but demand will outstrip supply 100fold. i think it is at its best between 15 to 30 years and a good one will be $15 to $20k.

from a website.

Sotheby's London has sold a 12-bottle case of 1967 Domaine de la Romanée-Conti for £58,650 ($119,259), making it the most expensive case of wine ever sold in their saleroom according to Decanter magazine. The case had a high estimate of £22,000 and was sold to an American private collector.

Domaine de la Romanée-Conti (DRC) is an estate in Burgundy, France that produces white and red wine.

It was established in 1232. Its flagship wine is produced from the Romanée-Conti vineyard. Describing the vineyard, eminent wine critic, Clive Coates says,

The scarcest, most expensive - and frequently the best - wine in the world ... If you can lay your hands on a case - and that is a big 'if' - you would have to pay £5,000 or more for a young vintage, double or treble for a wine in its prime. ... This is the purest, most aristocratic and most intense example of Pinot Noir you could possibly imagine. Not only nectar: a yardstick with which to judge all other Burgundies.

[Ken Gargett]

sorry, that $3k is an auction estimate. the lowest retail i could find was a californian mob called punt at US$4,950.

they also have a 1985 drc romanee-conti for a mere U$12,500, a snip!

[Claudius]

Wow, that's crazy. Just seen lots of their wines available on a French website. Just how many do they make? Seen Echezeaux, grand Echezeaux, Richebourg, La Tache, Romanée Conti, all 2003, all 95 or 96 Parker points, available between 700 and 8000 EUR a bottle.

[Cam]

the wines i have recommended are my own personal choices, I do know a little about French wine.. and XO is excellent, still top 5 Cognacs in the world, although the qulity control went hay-wire after Moet and Chandon was brought out by Louis Vuitton

[Cam]

And the Margaux aren't overpriced, in my opinion they are priced relative to harvest quality, rarity and market demand. Most cases go to asia pacific and the USA..

Cam -

If anyone wants any info on numbers or tasting notes just give me a bell

[Ken Gargett]

» Wow, that's crazy. Just seen lots of their wines available on a French

» website. Just how many do they make? Seen Echezeaux, grand Echezeaux,

» Richebourg, La Tache, Romanée Conti, all 2003, all 95 or 96 Parker points,

» available between 700 and 8000 EUR a bottle.

those five plus romanee-st-vivant. they also make a montrachet which is extremely rare, about $3k a bottle for young ones, and for some, the greatest white wine made.

in one or two exceptional vintages, they make small quantities of a premier cru red (last was 99, i think) but it is more for staff, workers, friends sort of thing.

[Ken Gargett]

» And the Margaux aren't overpriced, in my opinion they are priced relative

» to harvest quality, rarity and market demand. Most cases go to asia

» pacific and the USA..

agree re pricing to a large extent. if someone is prepared/wants/is silly enough to pay massive prices then that is the value, whether the rest of us like it or not. if you don't, don't buy it.

that said, the bordeaux and especially the owners of the first growths, have done a briliant job promoting thier wines/regions and estates. when one considers that most of the first growths make between 15,000 and 30,000 cases in comparison to grand cru burgundies, which are more likely to raneg from 50 to 500 cases, then something seems out of whack. as someone who loves burgundies, i hope it remains so.

[Cam]

yeah i agree to some extent, most Premiere cru classes are of exceptional quality, however (sadly) rarity does not always dictate price and quality, I love Burgandy also, we can only hope prices don't skyrocket due to over zealous American and Asian buyers and extremely high expectations!

[Cam]

in my opinion (and others) the problem with the wine market is the rate of price increase due to amazing demand from north america.

[lepatrik]

i think napa has current record

screaming eagle 1992 6 litres

500 000 dollar

in 1986 a 1748 Château d'Yquem sold for 56,588 dollars at Christies

A swedish wine investor did make 100% profit in 5 years with a wineportfolio worth around 2,5 million dollar.

Personally i see the winemarket as so hyped and welltraded thats its hard to make any real money. Good cigar investments should be better imo