FLB03TT Posted January 13, 2014 Author Posted January 13, 2014 Fair enough. I appreciate your understanding. Now, how about a high five instead of the finger ;-)
bogglor Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Please lift it. If my cigar business falls I couldn't give a rat's arse. To see the children of my friends in Cuba have a better future (opportunity) is more than I could ever ask for in return.If everyone could be as selfless as this, to give up your means of livelihood, it says a lot about what kind of a man you are. I am proud to be a member here and give you my continuing business.
El Presidente Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 If everyone could be as selfless as this, to give up your means of livelihood, it says a lot about what kind of a man you are. I am proud to be a member here and give you my continuing business. I have other businesses mate and can always find another one so I am not being magnanamous at all. Cigars will always likely play a commercial part in my life even if that is only servicing my Aussie/Asian/European brethren. I have given up worrying about things that I cannot control years ago. I would give almost anything to see the Diego (Jose's / Punch Joe's) son become a millionaire working and living in Cuba on the back of his own efforts without the need for theft/graft or living/working in the "grey". Hell i would give anything for him to get a decent job and paid a decent wage, raise a family. The things many of us take for granted.
El Presidente Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Rob, I believe your summary of the current state of affairs in Cuba is complete and accurate. I would now like to man-up and willingly enter the confessional and admit that the comments in my original post were driven by selfish, rather than humanitarian reasons. I will gladly say a penance of three Our Fathers and two Hail Marys if we can get on to a larger issue. As Rob points out, Cuba has normalized relations with the rest of the free and not so free world, but still finds itself in a world of hurt. This problem may not be helped by the US embargo which I feel is ineffectual at this stage of the game, but certainly is not caused by the continued embargo. The US continues to find itself in the unenviable position of being responsible for spearheading the international coalition against most, if not all, injustices throughout the free and not so free world we all live in. The reason for the Cuban embargo are rooted in Cold War fears, which now are effectively mute. The perpetuation of the embargo are now rooted in an attempt to punish a fascist regime for containing humanitarian injustices. Without regime change, and most probably, a complete overhaul of the socio-political system currently in place SHOULD the embargo be lifted? The bleeding heart, knee-jerk commentary regarding the desire that the US lift this repressive embargo need to be thought thru more thoroughly. I cannot deny that lifting it would help to swing the pendulum and I believe it will be lifted within a matter of years, if not sooner. The actual timing should, and I think will, be based on the continuing reforms taking place in Cuba, as we speak. Enjoying a fantastic Upmann Mag. 46 as I write this. mate, the purpose of debate on such subjects is for everyone to learn through thought provoking posts. That includes me and others that have visited Cuba for a long time. There are no easy answers. In my limited mind Cuba is a 30 year plan. ideally it would be headed by a Lee Kuan Yew individual (known by many as the father of Singapore) Google it but the restructure of a basketcase into a powerhouse through vision and control (political/economic/long term grand vision) Unfortunately there are not too many budding Lee Kuan Yew's in central and latin america. I certainly haven't heard of one in cuba! One thing that you may or not be aware of is the tail of the scorpion in the Cuban embargo of the stringent limitation of any international corporation doing business with the US also doing business with Cuba. This precludes companies such as Nestle/European banks/Travel Companies (just a few for brevity) actually doing business with Cuba directly. Yes, Third parties are used but at vastly increased prices. Cuba is a small market internationally and these groups would not sacrifice their US exposure for a few dollars in Cuba. This is where the embargo bites....not necessarilly direct US investment interaction. The US embargo the way it has been structured is a global embargo in many fields.
shlomo Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 One thing that you may or not be aware of is the tail of the scorpion in the Cuban embargo of the stringent limitation of any international corporation doing business with the US also doing business with Cuba. This precludes companies such as Nestle/European banks/Travel Companies (just a few for brevity) actually doing business with Cuba directly. Yes, Third parties are used but at vastly increased prices. Cuba is a small market internationally and these groups would not sacrifice their US exposure for a few dollars in Cuba. This is where the embargo bites....not necessarilly direct US investment interaction. The US embargo the way it has been structured is a global embargo in many fields. Did not know this. What about international banks?
El Presidente Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Did not know this. What about international banks? Shlomo I am not aware of any international bank doing direct business with Cuba today that is also incorporated in the USA utilising the same identity. I could be wrong but until not too long ago it was accurate as anyone trying to send money to Cuba via an international transfer can attest.
shlomo Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I was thinking more along the lines of credit cards from banks. Are those not considered direct business? Or better yet, travel companies or large airlines?
bogglor Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I was thinking more along the lines of credit cards from banks. Are those not considered direct business? Or better yet, travel companies or large airlines? If I read the embargo correctly, if the company is United States based or even has a US facing arm, they can't do business with Cuba. This would extend to credit card companies, airlines, travel agents, you name it.
shlomo Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 If I read the embargo correctly, if the company is United States based or even has a US facing arm, they can't do business with Cuba. This would extend to credit card companies, airlines, travel agents, you name it. This is not what Rob said.
El Presidente Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I was thinking more along the lines of credit cards from banks. Are those not considered direct business? Or better yet, travel companies or large airlines? Depends how they are stuctured. Credit Cards. Assume fro Australia. It is MasterCard Australia and Visa Australia. To achieve their license in Australia they had to sign up for global coverage to Oz residents. They did. AMEX did not. Incorporated in USA. Can't use in Cuba. Airlines. Jose Marti Havana is apparently a necessary "Hub" Shlomo I could never get a firm answer as to how Altadis could operate in the USA being in 50% JV with Tabacuba. There are anomolies. No doubt good lawyers and corporate structuring help.
aes8 Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Now, how about a high five instead of the finger ;-) No
Cigar Surgeon Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 If I read the embargo correctly, if the company is United States based or even has a US facing arm, they can't do business with Cuba. This would extend to credit card companies, airlines, travel agents, you name it. That's the mandate as far as I'm aware. I now work for a very large multinational company and we are not allowed to do business with Cuba. Although I only spent a small time in Cuba on my recent trip, what I saw from a humanitarian perspective was outright heartbreaking. I know that Cubans living in Miami have very strong feelings about opening the borders, but I honestly believe that it is the best thing for the people of Cuba.
MPS Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 I know that Cubans living in Miami have very strong feelings about opening the borders, but I honestly believe that it is the best thing for the people of Cuba. The younger generation of Cubans want it open as well. It's not all about the votes.
Cigar Surgeon Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 The younger generation of Cubans want it open as well. It's not all about the votes. Yeah I actually was discussing the embargo with a coworker a few days ago, and I said that I'm sure one of the big shifts that is coming is 2nd generation Cuban-Americans getting old enough to impact the vote.
TheCoach Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Please lift it. If my cigar business falls I couldn't give a rat's arse. To see the children of my friends in Cuba have a better future (opportunity) is more than I could ever ask for in return. Well put, i think the embargo has nothing to do with cigars in the grand scheme of things... The country as a whole will have a wealth of trading goods and economic possibilities that have never been seen in Cuba... If it means a better economy and bringing more stability and prosperity to Cuba I'm all for it... Cigars are a non-issue in my eyes...
Orion21 Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Please lift it. If my cigar business falls I couldn't give a rat's arse. To see the children of my friends in Cuba have a better future (opportunity) is more than I could ever ask for in return. The US is one thing, but the rest of the world does not have an embargo against Cuba. The change needs to occur inside Cuba itself. The lifting of the Embargo would do nothing unless the Cuban government creates a country that allows it's citizens to prosper. The easing of travel restrictions last year was a good step, so have been the limited opportunities to run businesses. However, communism needs to end or be replaced by a system more similar to China. I think many people put too much weight on the embargo. Yes, the US had been responsible for much of the prosperity before the revolution, but that was in the 1950's! Since the revolution the political environment in Cuba has not allowed other countries/investors to replace the US. It is kind of like Cuba cut off their own nose to spite their face . . .
obviousadams Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Lots of good posts here. 2 thoughts: 1. You have to change hearts and minds first. That happens with a lifting of the embargo and exposure to the US tourism. It could take a long time but this is the seed of unrest and change. 2. At least temporarily there would be a huge demand for CC and I think quality would have to plummet. I imagine the demand for pre- post- embargo cigars would be pretty high. Stock up now folks .
poisonowns Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 The US will be trading with Iran again before the embargo with is lifted. Makes no sense. Smh.
El Presidente Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I know too many good Cuban people who detest the Cuban Government. Each and every one of those would storm the Malecon to throw stones at any liberators. Just give them the tools to do it their way and in their time. Mistakes will be made (hell, current Cuba ain't no success) but forcing a top down change hasn't worked, A bottom up policy is worth a shot.
El Presidente Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I would love to have Richard Branson as head of US Cuba policy. Throw 10 balls in the air, 2 will work, fund those! In the real world you don't hit your head for 50 years running the same failed play.
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