the church drifts a little further away from reality

[Ken Gargett]

Over here,almost every week,we are hearing of more examples of abusing Priests being covered up or moved on to abuse again.Mostly in Ireland,the most recent story in Belgium,where the police have discovered that abuse took place in almost EVERY parish in the 70s.

As the police search for victims,they have discovered that 16 have already committed suicide.

there is a great deal of stupidity that goes on in any organisation - churches around the world are far from immune - and whilst one might wish it didn't, so be it. and every organisation has its bad apples and an entire entity can hardly be condemned for that.

to be honest, i really don't care what people believe or what religion they choose to follow, whether that be mainstream, whacko or a footy club, provided they are not actively doing harm. and with churches/religion, there is way too much of that. stoning an example for certain, but i guess the obvious one for the western world has been the abuse of children. it could hardly have been more widespread.

those that were involved should go to jail, for a very long time. those that in any way aided in the cover-up, whether by moving the offenders to another region or simply keeping quiet should also go to jail. and they certainly, if the church was at all serious, should have been thrown out of their respctive churches.

it is one of the greatest disgraces on this planet in the last century that scum under the name of the church should have committed these offences and then, not only hidden behind their various churches for protection, but actually received that protection.

please don't give me, 'their church, their rules'. that is absolute nonsense. 'their rules' allow for the abuse of children or provide protection for those that do?

i agree that there are many good people doing good work in various churches but i do not care what else you've done to try and absolve yourself, if you knew about this and did nothing then you are as guilty as the scum that perpetrated it and you deserve jail. once the various churches start taking some responsibility and exposing these people, not protecting them, then they might be due some respect. not before.

apols if i have banged on about this again but it is something that makes me furious and which i find unforgivable.

[StumpyJoe]

Interesting. If I share the beliefs and choose to belong to a church, I feel the onus is on me to adhere to church doctrine, and that it's not

the responsibility of the church to bend my whims.

Using Patrick's marriage example, why would I ask to be married in a church when I knowingly break church laws? Ask for last rites, or a

funeral mass when I never truly believed?

There are all kinds of organizations around the world that have membership requirements - don't agree, don't join. And certainly most if not

all religious groups have their shortcomings - at least to those who don't believe or belong.

As to playing any kind of anthems etc during a funeral mass, I think I'd find that a bit absurd, and probably agree that would be for any

post-mass celebration.

Wow! I never thought I would say it but I agree with his arguement. Very well put Colt.

[daboose]

Interesting discussion. "Church drifts a little from reality."

It hasn't. It's the same OLD story.

It's the testimony throughout the Bible that the number of "godly" men are few and far between (New or Old Testament); i.e., how many folks ended up on Noah's ark?; consistently the Bible saying only a "remnant" were faithful/obedient; how long did it take for God's nation to start complaining and wanting to go back to Egypt after crossing the Red Sea?; Peter denied Christ three times, and the apostle Paul said all men forsook him when the sentence of death was upon him, etc, etc, etc.

Times have not changed as far as man's true nature. The onus is on the individual in having God's will effectually work within.

Unfortunately El Prez has it correct, churches are an amalgam of society itself. Rather, it should be based on His word and not "church rules" which are inherently man-made.

((((Are the masses right when they want the larger vitolas? or the remnant in desiring the smaller? ))))

[Habanos2000]

Banning non-liturgical music at a funeral mass makes complete sense to me. I don't understand how that's moving away from reality. All too often I find that some institutions are inclinded to follow the popular trend and don't stick to their 'ground rules'.

Politics and religion, combining the best and worst for mankind.

[MontrealRon]

The Buddha was asked on many occasions whether there was a creator God that established the universe. He always refused to answer, stating that the question was irrelevant. What matters, he taught, is how we behave, not what we believe. If we live our lives practicing compassion, with respect for others and reverence for all living beings, we will be in tune with our true nature, and in harmony with the universe. There are many paths to this state of grace, some more direct, some more winding. The main problem with organized religions is that each claims to have the only path, to be the only connection to the will of God. This being so, each denies that which is positive and holy about the competitors, as they struggle for market control. So we end up with crusades, jihads, much of Europe killed off in the wars between Catholics and Protestants, genocide in the New World in the name of Christ, increasing tensions today, perhaps leading to a major war between the Sunnis and the Shiites, the totally impossible situation in Israel/Palestine where two peoples claim divine right to the same land...

I have no problem with those who talk to God, i.e. pray,

as prayer, like mindfulness and meditation, is a great spiritual exercise;

where I do have a problem is when God talks back,

as he who has heard the voice of God, or so he believes,

is beyond all reason, and incapable of compromise.

[Loki]

I recently, well last year had a run in with the catholic church.

Broughjt up catholic I have considered myself a born again athiest for many years.

My dad passed away and mother wanted to have a good catholic funeral for him.

My niece was about 13 at the time and wanted to sing the old standard ,Amazing Grace.

Long story short she had to meet with this scarey preist who looked like he just got off a plane from Transylvania.

Granted her grandfather had just passed, he made her sing in front of him , audition just to make sure that she was good enough and would not embarrass the CHURCH. What a bunch of crap.

Turned out she was better than anyone in the chior and belted out the most moving rendition that I had ever heard, really did us proud.