"Sick Period"

[Trimble]

I recently heard it said, that all Habanos experience periods of "sickness". I've always understood a "sick period" to be the time between the passing of a cigars more youthful flavors and the onset of flavors experienced by refinement from age, thus creating a dull time. That being said, its also my understanding that this may have been an issue of old, but due to an HSA decision to use more aged tobacco in their manufacturing process, extensive aging is no longer a prerequisite to enjoying a good CC.

Am I missing it here?

Having had both good & bad experiences with young & aged Habanos, I guess I could see it from both perspective?!

What are your thoughts?

[mm12]

In my opinion, it really varies according to the specific marca/cigar/box.

For example: I have an early 08 box of PSD4s. When they were young, I loved them, now they're just ok, but I definitely expect them to get better. On an 08 box Magnum 46s, they were just ok when they were really young, and now their starting to get really good. Same thing for Mag50's. I have a box of Upmann Connoisseur no. 1's that were AMAZING in the first year or so, but now they've gone a bit sick. Same thing for my Upmann no. 2s.

I don't think there are necessarily any hard and fast rules, even for specific cigars. It's possible to generalize to some extent, but I think the best approach is: If they taste good now, go ahead and smoke some of them. If/when they start to taste not quite as good, sit on them for awhile and try one every 4-6 months to see if they're getting better. Sick periods still exist despite the use of aged tobacco, but not for every cigar. Some start good, get worse, then get even better than they were initially. Some just have a straight upward trajectory as they age. Some stay more or less flat. Some gradually lose a bit as they get older. With some cigars, I don't think they necessarily get better or worse, but the overall flavor profile gradually changes, so it just comes down to personal preference.

[cigcars]

*Yes, I'm seeing the benefits of trying to be patient...not one of my best qualities. I'd gotten two Bolivar Petite Belicoso LE's, smoked one immediately, and was NOT impressed. The other one sat just until tonight (after Thanksgiving) - PHENOMENAL difference. It was G-R-R-E-E-A-A-A-T!!! Wonderful Cuban aromas and flavors. That's even the case with my non-Cubans. Some I've had in my humidors for years - I'm trying them now and they too are phenomenal. Of course my close acquaintences tell me it's probably because they've been sitting in such close proximity to my other Cubans!

[Colt45]

It does seem that recent vintages are more approachable in their youths. And while many cigars probably still need some time to show their best,

it also seems that the "flat" time tends to be less extreme.

But it also makes me wonder if it's possible that something gets lost..... taking seasonal variations in tobacco out of the equation, when many cigars

required years to come around, was the final product at peak the same or different than more recent, more approachable cigars at peak?

[CanuckSARTech]

I recently heard it said, that all Habanos experience periods of "sickness". I've always understood a "sick period" to be the time between the passing of a cigars more youthful flavors and the onset of flavors experienced by refinement from age, thus creating a dull time. That being said, its also my understanding that this may have been an issue of old, but due to an HSA decision to use more aged tobacco in their manufacturing process, extensive aging is no longer a prerequisite to enjoying a good CC.

Am I missing it here?

Having had both good & bad experiences with young & aged Habanos, I guess I could see it from both perspective?!

What are your thoughts?

I think you are mentioning the "sick period", but what you are referring to is more of a "dull period".

To me, that initial year generally contains the sick period. I do definitely notice it with some cigars - an ammonia essence that leaches out of the cigars, as they begin their marrying process after the leaved being wetted and rolled in Havana. Some cigars don't really have a very present sick period of emitting ammonia, while others that do can vary from only a month or to, upwards to a year or more.

Then, you get some lovely but youthful flavours after that first six months to a year of box age. They taste fresh and flavourful, but have a bold and sometimes harsh youthfulness to the flavours.

Then, after another year or five (it all depends on the cigar), that's when you can get an actual dull period, where the flavours and potency of the cigar really back off. I think of this as a final fermentation or aging, where things are marrying together better in the end, and the full essence and flavours of the blend as intended will finalize and will come to the forefront once this period finishes up.

After that period, you can end up with just a textbook classic cigar - no youthful attributes, no harshness or nicotine tanginess, just a bouquet of flavours and development, without an overpowering strength that will knock you over, but instead with a richness of flavour and profile.

This is all my own thought an experience, anyways.

I've seen all this referred to differently, with different aging period terms, etc. But I think this is a general look at it. The "sick period" is within the initial year, with ammonia/sourness being present, and then the "dull period" being another year or two later, after the cigars have actually been smoking okay for a year or more, but then they disappear, so to speak, before coming out of the dull period as refined and complete.

As to what you're considering also, with H S.A. using better aged product, it does come into play a bit. But I think that the sick period, and even the dull periods maybe, will still be there. H S.A. is just using leaf that's been aged longer in the bales - this can only benefit the flavours and blends. But, to me anyway, the sick period is a post-rolling fermentation period, where you get that ammonia smell and sour taste sometimes due to the leaf being made wet for the rolling process, and then the individual leaves used in the cigar to marry and ferment together in the cigar. True, the better aged leaves will maybe make this initial sick period be much less in time or prevalence, but I still think the period will be there. They'll just come through it better and faster, I think.

Some of my more recent stock (ie - Trinidad Robustos T) are from March 2010, and when I got them in June, the ammonia essence was just ever so slightly there upon opening the box. By July - nothing. Other similarly blended cigars have taken much longer in years past.

There is a TON of variation on all of this with marcas and blends, etc.

My 2 cents on all of this.

[edameff]

I think you are mentioning the "sick period", but what you are referring to is more of a "dull period".

To me, that initial year generally contains the sick period. I do definitely notice it with some cigars - an ammonia essence that leaches out of the cigars, as they begin their marrying process after the leaved being wetted and rolled in Havana. Some cigars don't really have a very present sick period of emitting ammonia, while others that do can vary from only a month or to, upwards to a year or more.

Then, you get some lovely but youthful flavours after that first six months to a year of box age. They taste fresh and flavourful, but have a bold and sometimes harsh youthfulness to the flavours.

Then, after another year or five (it all depends on the cigar), that's when you can get an actual dull period, where the flavours and potency of the cigar really back off. I think of this as a final fermentation or aging, where things are marrying together better in the end, and the full essence and flavours of the blend as intended will finalize and will come to the forefront once this period finishes up.

After that period, you can end up with just a textbook classic cigar - no youthful attributes, no harshness or nicotine tanginess, just a bouquet of flavours and development, without an overpowering strength that will knock you over, but instead with a richness of flavour and profile.

This is all my own thought an experience, anyways.

I've seen all this referred to differently, with different aging period terms, etc. But I think this is a general look at it. The "sick period" is within the initial year, with ammonia/sourness being present, and then the "dull period" being another year or two later, after the cigars have actually been smoking okay for a year or more, but then they disappear, so to speak, before coming out of the dull period as refined and complete.

As to what you're considering also, with H S.A. using better aged product, it does come into play a bit. But I think that the sick period, and even the dull periods maybe, will still be there. H S.A. is just using leaf that's been aged longer in the bales - this can only benefit the flavours and blends. But, to me anyway, the sick period is a post-rolling fermentation period, where you get that ammonia smell and sour taste sometimes due to the leaf being made wet for the rolling process, and then the individual leaves used in the cigar to marry and ferment together in the cigar. True, the better aged leaves will maybe make this initial sick period be much less in time or prevalence, but I still think the period will be there. They'll just come through it better and faster, I think.

Some of my more recent stock (ie - Trinidad Robustos T) are from March 2010, and when I got them in June, the ammonia essence was just ever so slightly there upon opening the box. By July - nothing. Other similarly blended cigars have taken much longer in years past.

There is a TON of variation on all of this with marcas and blends, etc.

My 2 cents on all of this.

To me you hit the nail on the head with this reply. I have always been fascinated by the aging of cigars, especially Habanos. On page 7 of Min Ron NEE's book, he does an excellent job of describing the sick period as an accelerated fermentation due to the moistening of the leaf during the rolling process. It is the ammonia which causes the uni formally unpleasant smell and taste. Interestingly enough, the general rule is that a cigar can be smoked within a month of being rolled without the ammonia concentrating enough to be noticed, then the cigar should sit for one to two years depending on many variables including ventilation which more quickly dissipates the NH3 molecules. Over the next five pages, he then goes on to describe three separate maturation periods, and I think it is these that spark so much debate among us. I generally find that very few cigars are to my taste until two or more years have passed, I do smoke samples of each box and take notes on the taste for future comparison. Keep in mind that to say that a cigar is "better" or "worse" with age is not quite accurate. I say it is "Different", some of us like our bananas a little greener, others more ripe, who is "Right"...nobody. Just personal preference, is a Lexus better or a BMW...again they are different. I very much appreciate you posting this question, and again I think that the answer above is right on the money.

[Colt45]

With regards to tobacco fermentation, everything I've ever read on the subject states it takes quite a bit of heat - basically, tobacco in a rolled

cigar can no longer ferment. For me, an intense ammonia sensation speaks of improperly processed tobacco.

[CanuckSARTech]

With regards to tobacco fermentation, everything I've ever read on the subject states it takes quite a bit of heat - basically, tobacco in a rolled

cigar can no longer ferment. For me, an intense ammonia sensation speaks of improperly processed tobacco.

I don't think heat comes into play, Colt, but that's maybe my belief of it, and I do get what you're saying. From how I've seen and read, when they have the tobacco stored in the pales for fermenting, or in the bales for aging and storage, they don't heat them up. Fermentation is all about moisture and then the pressure within the piles/bales, and then there's a modest amount of heat generated as a by-product. It's the moisture and the oils in the leaf, when they're all packaged together in their bales, that leads to the leaf fermentation over a number of months and years.

Then, when they go to use the leaves in the rolling of the cigars, they're moistened again. To me, this then re-awakens this fermentation, albeit on a much smaller level, when the leaves are bunched and rolled together into cigars, and then packaged into their boxes.

With this changeover in the state of these leaves, another minor "off-gassing", if you will, takes place again with the rolling moisture being evaporated out of the fresh cigars. That's where I get the mild ammonia smell from. Again, this depends heavily from cigar to cigar, blend to blend, etc.

But, if you're getting an ammonia smell two or three or even five years out with a particular box, or if it's extremely omnipresent, then I'd agree that it could definitely be some bad tobacco. But a mild hint of it within the first year is just the "sick" in the cigars from the rolling process.

[adic88]

I think you are mentioning the "sick period", but what you are referring to is more of a "dull period".

To me, that initial year generally contains the sick period. I do definitely notice it with some cigars - an ammonia essence that leaches out of the cigars, as they begin their marrying process after the leaved being wetted and rolled in Havana. Some cigars don't really have a very present sick period of emitting ammonia, while others that do can vary from only a month or to, upwards to a year or more.

Then, you get some lovely but youthful flavours after that first six months to a year of box age. They taste fresh and flavourful, but have a bold and sometimes harsh youthfulness to the flavours.

Then, after another year or five (it all depends on the cigar), that's when you can get an actual dull period, where the flavours and potency of the cigar really back off. I think of this as a final fermentation or aging, where things are marrying together better in the end, and the full essence and flavours of the blend as intended will finalize and will come to the forefront once this period finishes up.

After that period, you can end up with just a textbook classic cigar - no youthful attributes, no harshness or nicotine tanginess, just a bouquet of flavours and development, without an overpowering strength that will knock you over, but instead with a richness of flavour and profile.

This is all my own thought an experience, anyways.

I've seen all this referred to differently, with different aging period terms, etc. But I think this is a general look at it. The "sick period" is within the initial year, with ammonia/sourness being present, and then the "dull period" being another year or two later, after the cigars have actually been smoking okay for a year or more, but then they disappear, so to speak, before coming out of the dull period as refined and complete.

As to what you're considering also, with H S.A. using better aged product, it does come into play a bit. But I think that the sick period, and even the dull periods maybe, will still be there. H S.A. is just using leaf that's been aged longer in the bales - this can only benefit the flavours and blends. But, to me anyway, the sick period is a post-rolling fermentation period, where you get that ammonia smell and sour taste sometimes due to the leaf being made wet for the rolling process, and then the individual leaves used in the cigar to marry and ferment together in the cigar. True, the better aged leaves will maybe make this initial sick period be much less in time or prevalence, but I still think the period will be there. They'll just come through it better and faster, I think.

Some of my more recent stock (ie - Trinidad Robustos T) are from March 2010, and when I got them in June, the ammonia essence was just ever so slightly there upon opening the box. By July - nothing. Other similarly blended cigars have taken much longer in years past.

There is a TON of variation on all of this with marcas and blends, etc.

My 2 cents on all of this.

I'll +1 on this comment. I was about to reply to this thread, then read Canuck's experiences and found that it matches my own exactly.

[Colt45]

I've not suggested that tobacco is heated (though some believe the Cubans cook their tobacco, perhaps during curing). The weight and moisture of the

bales produce heat, no doubt - all part of the fermentation process. The tobacco is rotated in order to control temperature - too much temp, cooked

tobacco. Too little temp, incomplete fermentation.

I'm not a tobacco man, so I defer to those with first hand experience in handling tobacco. But I still believe that if you open a box of cigars and get a strong

whiff of ammonia, you've got a box of cigars with improperly processed tobacco. A damp cigar might taste "sour", have burn problems, etc, but should not

still be off-gassing. That is the purpose of fermentation - to rid tobacco of these type of impurities.

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

With regards to tobacco fermentation, everything I've ever read on the subject states it takes quite a bit of heat - basically, tobacco in a rolled cigar can no longer ferment. For me, an intense ammonia sensation speaks of improperly processed tobacco.

I'd have to agree with Colt here. When the cigar has been made, the tobacco in it can't be fermented further, because there is no heat to continue the fermentation process. Cigars can become mellow with age, but no fermentation occurs as they mature. Obviously if the tobacco used in the manufacture of cigars has been improperly cured and fermented in the first place, then those cigars will always retain high amounts of ammonia, nicotine, tar and other undesirables and thus will never benefit from years of aging.

This thread reminds me of what can be read on the box lids of Rafael González puros: "They should be smoked either within one month of the date of shipment from Havana or should be carefully matured for about one year."

[CanuckSARTech]

I've not suggested that tobacco is heated (though some believe the Cubans cook their tobacco, perhaps during curing). The weight and moisture of the

bales produce heat, no doubt - all part of the fermentation process. The tobacco is rotated in order to control temperature - too much temp, cooked

tobacco. Too little temp, incomplete fermentation.

I'm not a tobacco man, so I defer to those with first hand experience in handling tobacco. But I still believe that if you open a box of cigars and get a strong

whiff of ammonia, you've got a box of cigars with improperly processed tobacco. A damp cigar might taste "sour", have burn problems, etc, but should not

still be off-gassing. That is the purpose of fermentation - to rid tobacco of these type of impurities.

Granted. I thought that you meant that they added heat to the piles, rather than the byproduct. Sorry, but thanks for the clarification.

I don't think cigars still ferment per say during the sick period when they're in their boxes - fermenting isn't what I meant necessarily was going on once the cigars are rolled and in their boxes. But, there's definitely something going on, with the newly added moisture coming out in that initial few months - the different leaves used in the blends are now exchanging their oils with newfound leaf friends, as they're not in their bales anymore with their likeminded leaves, so there's maybe a potential chemical change from that happening as well. And, I'm not necessarily meaning that there's huge amounts of ammonia present - I definitely do get a whiff out of them during this timeperiod, but I know some of my buddies don't smell it at all. Some may notice it, some may not, and it depends from cigar to cigar and box to box. And, if it was downright overpowering, like if you opened the box and kapow!, then I'd definitely agree with you that there's some iffy tobacco in there, that's for sure. But, I still get a hint of it during the initial year sometimes.

But, all understood - different experiences to this lovely enjoyment hobby.

[Trimble]

It does seem that recent vintages are more approachable in their youths. And while many cigars probably still need some time to show their best,

it also seems that the "flat" time tends to be less extreme.

But it also makes me wonder if it's possible that something gets lost..... taking seasonal variations in tobacco out of the equation, when many cigars

required years to come around, was the final product at peak the same or different than more recent, more approachable cigars at peak?

Colt, thanks for the input! Its thoughts like these that peaked my interest in this subject to begin with. Are they signs of an evolving tobacco industry or purely coincidental?

To me you hit the nail on the head with this reply. I have always been fascinated by the aging of cigars, especially Habanos. On page 7 of Min Ron NEE's book, he does an excellent job of describing the sick period as an accelerated fermentation due to the moistening of the leaf during the rolling process. It is the ammonia which causes the uni formally unpleasant smell and taste. Interestingly enough, the general rule is that a cigar can be smoked within a month of being rolled without the ammonia concentrating enough to be noticed, then the cigar should sit for one to two years depending on many variables including ventilation which more quickly dissipates the NH3 molecules. Over the next five pages, he then goes on to describe three separate maturation periods, and I think it is these that spark so much debate among us. I generally find that very few cigars are to my taste until two or more years have passed, I do smoke samples of each box and take notes on the taste for future comparison. Keep in mind that to say that a cigar is "better" or "worse" with age is not quite accurate. I say it is "Different", some of us like our bananas a little greener, others more ripe, who is "Right"...nobody. Just personal preference, is a Lexus better or a BMW...again they are different. I very much appreciate you posting this question, and again I think that the answer above is right on the money.

Doc, as you mentioned, some of the statements that MRN made in his book have definitely "spark(ed) so much debate among us (cigar smokers)". Personally, I don't feel that its a question of whether or not his claims are 100% right or wrong. If anything he's provided a catalyst to a healthy dialog amongst fellow cigar smokers. It got me thinking anyways! I believe that your comments on "personal preference" sum it up best! BTW, I like my bananas more ripe, hate em' when they're green! Thanks for the input bro!

Thank for all of the comments guys!! Terrific thoughts!! Canuck, very well said!! I appreciate it.

[adic88]

Crazy technical details here about the process. I don't understand half of it lol.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50483a032

[Cohiba007]

I have an additional question to this thread. When I smoke a cigar from a box that seems dull, I assume all the cigars in the box are suffering the same way. I never try another cigar out of the box for 6 months and most of the time there is an improvement. Well, the improved cigar may not have improved but rather always have been stellar. If you guys get a flavorless dud in a box, do you condemn the box or try another from the same box?

[CanuckSARTech]

I have an additional question to this thread. When I smoke a cigar from a box that seems dull, I assume all the cigars in the box are suffering the same way. I never try another cigar out of the box for 6 months and most of the time there is an improvement. Well, the improved cigar may not have improved but rather always have been stellar. If you guys get a flavorless dud in a box, do you condemn the box or try another from the same box?

Interesting perspective - I suspect that either could be true (single cigar or the whole box). No way to really know positively maybe, but I have a bit of a plan if/when I hit this.

Once in a while I hit this. If I try an initial cigar from a box, and get a dud so to speak, then I'll leave it for another month or two, and then try another to see if it was just the box or the individual cigar. Then, if that one's a dud too, then I'll leave it for 6 months at least. I've only had to do this rarely.

Generally, I'll take an initial cigar from a new box, try it, and whether it's a dud or not, will set that box aside for 6 months at least.

I don't think I've ever completely condemned off a box - even complete duds that I've gotten get sat aside to get the most age, one cigar every 6 months or so, even just as an interesting take on how the aging process affects them long term, dud or not.

[Colt45]

Sorry, but thanks for the clarification.

Nothing to be sorry about. And just to clarify, I'm not really disagreeing with you or trying to be argumentative. My main point, really my only point,

is that I don't think I really believe in the premise of a secondary fermentation during / after rolling.

There is no question that the rolled tobacco goes through changes - maturation, marrying, etc.

Are they signs of an evolving tobacco industry or purely coincidental?

Many NC producers have been using aged tobacco when rolling cigars for some time. The Cubans, generally speaking, have been using the 3-2-1 aged

tobaccos for a relatively short time in comparison. But it leaves me with more questions - is it because they feel this amount of aging is right for Cuban

tobacco? Does it give a good balance between early approachability and ability to age? Is it simply a matter of economics - not wanting to keep large

stocks of tobacco sitting around when it could be making money as cigars?

I also recall reading one article (I'm sorry I can't recall who, what, where) where it mentioned that some Cuban cigars were rolled with tobacco that had

been incompletely processed intentionally - to create cigars that would require long aging. I've no idea if it is true or not, but it doesn't make much sense

to me.

[El Presidente]

I have an additional question to this thread. When I smoke a cigar from a box that seems dull, I assume all the cigars in the box are suffering the same way. I never try another cigar out of the box for 6 months and most of the time there is an improvement. Well, the improved cigar may not have improved but rather always have been stellar. If you guys get a flavorless dud in a box, do you condemn the box or try another from the same box?

Whether a box is 10 months old or 10 years old you can have a stunner lying next to a dudder. Less of a chance with the 10 year old box but have experienced it plenty of times.

Keep in mind different rollers rolled the cigars in your box. Each has a little idiosyncracy in his rolling style...each has a different state off mind in any given day.

If you have a dudder out of a box.....try another. Two suck....chuck (in the humidor)

[adic88]

I also recall reading one article (I'm sorry I can't recall who, what, where) where it mentioned that some Cuban cigars were rolled with tobacco that had

been incompletely processed intentionally - to create cigars that would require long aging. I've no idea if it is true or not, but it doesn't make much sense

to me.

Actually, this does make sense to me from a niche customer perspective -- there are some people who are fanatical about aging; smoking the cigar is just a by-product of their actual hobby and that is to age a cigar and record its progress. Don't laugh, i've met such people before. Sometimes they ask me to smoke the cigar for them, and tell them how its getting along.

What doesn't make sense is that HSA doesn't explicitly say which cigars its doing this to. That would make buying them for people like my weird friend a lot easier.

Also, iirc, Cuba had a particularly bad harvest year due to storms and too much rain or bugs or something like that, this is about 15 years ago (??) -- anyways, as a result, they couldn't get the tobacco they wanted right, and had to release whatever they could, including tobacco that would not have passed their regular levels of perfection. So while Cuba may have not intentionally released un-ready cigars, there may be years where they are forced to.

[James4226c]

Crazy technical details here about the process. I don't understand half of it lol.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50483a032

Anybody a member that would be able to upload the whole file?

[bobsled]

With regards to tobacco fermentation, everything I've ever read on the subject states it takes quite a bit of heat - basically, tobacco in a rolled

cigar can no longer ferment. For me, an intense ammonia sensation speaks of improperly processed tobacco.

I have had some sticks a few years back, from multiple boxes, that experienced this "Sick" period where they had a definite ammonia flavor that built as you smoked the stick, most unbearable it was.

Haven't experienced this more recently, but it was only certain sticks in the humi not all so I don't think it was related to storage. After a few months these sticks lost the ammonia flavor and were quite excellent. There was no discernable ammonia odor at cold or in the humi so it is not easily explained by me.........except by blaming the "sick" period.

[cellinisart]

With regards to tobacco fermentation, everything I've ever read on the subject states it takes quite a bit of heat - basically, tobacco in a rolled

cigar can no longer ferment. For me, an intense ammonia sensation speaks of improperly processed tobacco.

DING DING!

[CanuckSARTech]

Many NC producers have been using aged tobacco when rolling cigars for some time. The Cubans, generally speaking, have been using the 3-2-1 aged

tobaccos for a relatively short time in comparison. But it leaves me with more questions - is it because they feel this amount of aging is right for Cuban

tobacco? Does it give a good balance between early approachability and ability to age? Is it simply a matter of economics - not wanting to keep large

stocks of tobacco sitting around when it could be making money as cigars?

Oooooh, that's an interesting thought too. That is a bit curious - after looking through my cigar books, I haven't really found anything that points to where this aging timeline comes from, or when exactly the Cubans started using it. Very interesting thoughts on why - money, tobacco reasons, age/approachability considerations, etc.

Interesting thoughts.

Man, this is a crazy hobby/love!