Malaysian elections

[sengjc]

...Yeah you want to change the government that's great but what do you do after that...

Like a wise man once said: "same ****, different flies"

[Andy04]

I am 100% BN for the following reasons:

1) Malaysia has shown good economic growth over the past 5 years.

2) Uncertainty in PR's internal policies will lead to instability.

3) PAS in my opinion does not support a multiracial community.

4) Whilst the NEP does favour the Bumiputra, many people have found loopholes allowing the wealth to spread. The NEP has made the Chinese and Indians more wealthy than most Malays.

[DrunkenMonkey]

I am 100% BN for the following reasons:

1) Malaysia has shown good economic growth over the past 5 years.

2) Uncertainty in PR's internal policies will lead to instability.

3) PAS in my opinion does not support a multiracial community.

4) Whilst the NEP does favour the Bumiputra, many people have found loopholes allowing the wealth to spread. The NEP has made the Chinese and Indians more wealthy than most Malays.

Number 4 seems counterintuitive. Maybe explain how the NEP has helped Chinese and Indians relative to Malays? And even if that were true, would the fact that people have managed to subvert a bad policy's intention be an argument in favor of the policy?

[Andy04]

Have a read of the following two articles, they sum it all up quite well.

http://www.malaysiandigest.com/opinion/10697-greed-the-cause-of-wealth-disparity-among-races.html

http://www.economist.com/node/4323219

[Fuzz AI]

As long as Malaysia remains divided between Bumiputra and non-Bumiputra, there can be no true change. Ratify the ICERD, get rid of the NEP and install a means tested program for governmental support to target the poor, regardless of ethnic background.

[DrunkenMonkey]

As long as Malaysia remains divided between Bumiputra and non-Bumiputra, there can be no true change. Ratify the ICERD, get rid of the NEP and install a means tested program for governmental support to target the poor, regardless of ethnic background.

This ^^ sounds to me like the voice of reason. Racial preferences are poisonous, and whatever good came from them is in the past.

Of course the elephant in the room, and one big weight tied around the ankle of the economy is corruption, and neither coalition is probably going to do anything to seriously reduce that, but there are things that can help to reduce it over time. A functional multiparty democratic system and a free, independent press would be a significant start, in my opinion.

[ZinZan]

Have a read of the following two articles, they sum it all up quite well.

http://www.malaysiandigest.com/opinion/10697-greed-the-cause-of-wealth-disparity-among-races.html

http://www.economist.com/node/4323219

Well said man. I didn't really want to branded racist or a bigot by bringing that up but that's how it is. Distribution of wealth have not been equal to proportion of the racial make up of population. It was in part a social engineering program that was open to abuse.

Our racial divide was was the British colonial legacy to us. They divided and conquer, Malays government administration, the Chinese trading an Indian the rubber tappers. And this is to become the social class after the independence. The Chinese of course excelled controlled all trade and not just that the whole value chain. That is when the problems starts and become our dark history of may 69.

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[Andy04]

If properly managed policies allowing for racial preferences can work and be greatly beneficial for disadvantaged races, allowing them to compete with the more advantaged races (examples being financial and educational incentives being administered by the Australian Government towards the Aboriginal population, or by the US Government towards the American Indians and Alaskan Tribal Communities).

In these cases the "natives" are the minority, whereby in Malaysia the natives (refered to as Bumiputra) are the majority.

Malaysia's racial policies have not been correctly administered or regulated and have been grossly abused by the Bumiputra themselves. This has lead to a small minority of Bumiputras becoming very wealthy while the majority are still very poor.

Without these racial policies in place, the current "average" Bumiputra would be far worse off.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Without these racial policies in place, the current "average" Bumiputra would be far worse off.

That's a huge bit of conjecture. No one knows what the average and median Bumiputra's household income would be if not for the preferences. No one knows how much bigger Malaysia's GDP would be if not for them. No one knows what contributions were not made by Chinese and Indian kids who were denied admittance to college, even though their academic achievement warranted admittance. No one knows what contributions were never made by Chinese and Indian kids who did have the money to go overseas for education but never came back with their engineering degree because they had better prospects in the UK, or the US, or Australia. You cannot say with certainty that the "average" Bumiputra is better off today because you cannot say what the net effect of these policies have been on the country as a whole. What you can say for certain is that Malaysia's economic efficiency has been compromised to some degree by them, and that Malaysia's economy is some amount smaller than it would have been without them.

[Andy04]

What is the point of leting aneconomy grow if the majority of your population goes not benefit from this growth?

[DrunkenMonkey]

Why do you think they would not have benefitted?

[Andy04]

I have made my point of view clear, how about you share your pov instead of questioning mine?

[sengjc]

When I think of Malaysia's development, I always think of Singapore. Both countries achieved independence together but went their separate ways.

Fast forward to the present and compare.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Sorry, I did try to make my point of view clear. My only real point is that policies based on racial preferences are poisonous.

Do you want to help disadvantaged people? Then make policies to help poor people, not people of one race. The average Indian in Malaysia is poorer than the average Malay. So if your NEP is there to help "disadvantaged races", as you said, then it should help Indians and Bumiputra alike.

But of course if you want to help poor people, then in my opinion the best way to do that would be to help poor people.

[sengjc]

By the way, today is the big day, I think.

Happy voting to those who are and may you make the right choices. Stay safe.

[Fuzz AI]

As long as you maintain racial preference policies, you will have a divided Malaysia. What is the point of a racial policy but to divide the country. These kind of policies will ultimately be abused and worked around to benefit the rich and not the poor. The NEP is a clear example of this.

If Malaysia had used deprivation based policies, as opposed to racial policies, we would have seen greater changes for the poor.

[Andy04]

DrunkenMonkey, the following disproves your opinion.

http://www.statistics.gov.my/portal/images/stories/files/LatestReleases/household/HIS_2012_Eng.pdf

[Andy04]

Fuzz, I do agree with your idea in general. But I highly doubt that this will work in Malaysia as the largest race group also makes up the largest group living below the poverty line.

[DrunkenMonkey]

DrunkenMonkey, the following disproves your opinion.

http://www.statistics.gov.my/portal/images/stories/files/LatestReleases/household/HIS_2012_Eng.pdf

It disproves one of the data points that I used. It doesn't disprove my opinion. That data point was sourced from a conversation.

But you think that it 'disproves my opinion'? Really? So do you think that rural poor Indians, who get no advantage from the NEP, are less in need of economic help than rich Malays, who do get advantage from it?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see any coherent rational argument for continuing the NEP. I would very much like to hear one, though.

[Fuzz AI]

Whilst I'm in agreement with DM, this topic can get messy really quickly. Malaysian politics is about as divisive as US politics (perhaps even more so).

Malaysian policies are designed to help one group, and realistically, one small minority within that group. Cronyism and corruption continue to make a farce of those so called policies designed to help the poor. Malaysia will remain divided as long as it continues to divide it's people with outdated policies.

Want to improve Malaysia? Stop seeing Malaysia as being made up of Bumiputra, Chinese Malays, Indian Malays, etc etc, and start seeing them as Malaysians. Poor people are simply poor people, not poor Bumiputra/Chinese/Indians. There is no difference when you can't provide for your family.

Continuing to believe that removing the racial privileges will not work for Malaysia will just maintain the status quo and perpetuate the unending cycle of poverty, no matter which race is suffering.

[ZinZan]

DM: Case in point in Indonesia and Thailand, the general populous does not benefit from development or the progress country, the wealth is centred to select few.

Senjagc: Yes agreed Singapore did far a far better job and i say this with the utmost respect. But that's a one party system they don't even have opposition much less a credible one. Their press freedom ranking is even worse than Malaysia unbelievably. Singapore population numbers and ethnic is not as diverse as Malaysia thus far easier to manage.

Anyways happy voting!! Gosh I need a cigar after all this politicking.

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[ZinZan]

Whilst I'm in agreement with DM, this topic can get messy really quickly. Malaysian politics is about as divisive as US politics (perhaps even more so).

Malaysian policies are designed to help one group, and realistically, one small minority within that group. Cronyism and corruption continue to make a farce of those so called policies designed to help the poor. Malaysia will remain divided as long as it continues to divide it's people with outdated policies.

Want to improve Malaysia? Stop seeing Malaysia as being made up of Bumiputra, Chinese Malays, Indian Malays, etc etc, and start seeing them as Malaysians. Poor people are simply poor people, not poor Bumiputra/Chinese/Indians. There is no difference when you can't provide for your family.

Continuing to believe that removing the racial privileges will not work for Malaysia will just maintain the status quo and perpetuate the unending cycle of poverty, no matter which race is suffering.

Fuzz, I agree with you wholeheartedly but the political infrastructure is not ready for such. The Malaysian constitution had inscribed the privileges of the Bumiputera I may not agree with it but its there and its the basis of Malaysia. The educated and urban may find the 2 party system as viable moving forward but the less educated and rural only knows politic by the racial line. How do we move from how we are now to that?

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[DrunkenMonkey]

ZinZan, are we in disagreement? I'm not sure what your point is. What are you saying regarding Indonesia/Thailand? I hope you don't have the idea that I'm advocating Indonesia's political system for Malaysia.

[sengjc]

...Senjagc: Yes agreed Singapore did far a far better job and i say this with the utmost respect. But that's a one party system they don't even have opposition much less a credible one. Their press freedom ranking is even worse than Malaysia unbelievably. Singapore population numbers and ethnic is not as diverse as Malaysia thus far easier to manage....

True, their opposition parties are quite non-existent and the ruling party of Singapore has been in power pretty much since their independence...quite like BN and Malaysia. There is strict control over freedom of speech, much like Malaysia and the famous (or infamous) ISA.

They also have less land, virtually zero natural resources, inadequate water...

They still do have the same racial mix of Malay, Chinese and Indian mix and I believe the Malay ethnics of Singapore get special rights and privileges too.

Hmmm...

Let's look at the other ASEAN countries in the region and consider the demographic makeup (approximates).

Indonesia: 90% Malay, 10% Indian and Chinese, lots of resources, populous = corruption has free reign, poverty is rife, crime is widespread.

Malaysia: 70% Malay, 30% Indian and Chinese, lots of resources = corruption is rife but borderline controlled (somewhat), poverty is evident, crime is bad.

Singapore: 30% Malay, 70% Indian and Chinese, zero resources = corruption is in check (probably does still happen but not very often), poverty and crime is minimal.

Then again, my observations are probably outdated and skewed, probably inaccurate too.

[ZinZan]

ZinZan, are we in disagreement? I'm not sure what your point is. What are you saying regarding Indonesia/Thailand? I hope you don't have the idea that I'm advocating Indonesia's political system for Malaysia.

If you look at the Indonesian rich list is dominated by ethnic Chinese and same with Thailand. But the Sukarno regime made it compulsory assimilation to the local culture, adopting local names and language. In Malaysia the different ethnics were allowed to keep their culture, language and so forth thus the social contract and the privileges of the Bumiputera.

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