President Barack Obama now owns the crippling Cuba embargo, because he hasn't stopped it

[Ken Gargett]

Krieky! There's more?

you keep saying i am implying this or saying that and then put words in my mouth so yes, i do intend to respond.

[El Presidente]

Krieky! There's more?

That's Crikey!

[Shelby07]

That's Crikey!

Well, at least it wasn't crap.

[PigFish]

Hey Rob! If Ken has got more to say can I get a bit of airtime?

[Shelby07]

you keep saying i am implying this or saying that and then put words in my mouth so yes, i do intend to respond.

Ahh... the classic Nixon offense

“I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

[Jesuscookies]

Wow you guys are smart

[El Presidente]

Hey Rob! If Ken has got more to say can I get a bit of airtime?

if you have to

Shelby, keep in mind FOH operates as cigar form of that great sitcom "Cheers"

ken has often told me "What a load of Crap". It really is not mean't as an offence but rather the return salvo prefacing an invariable assault on my argument

Text arguments in a forum can lack the intricacy /finesse of verbal arguments. By arguments I mean articulation of differing viewpoints. Always give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intent.

Montreal I will take a different slant on your post. Cubans are poor because in the main they are well educated and highly literate and all forms of opportunity and freedoms we take for granted have been stripped away. When you are educated this is the cruelest blow of all.

Colt, there is no opportunity for the Cuban people to rise up currently. Doing so would make Tiananmen square look like a Sunday picnic. You really have to visit to spend serious time in the place to understand the complete control the government has.

[Ken Gargett]

Ahh... the classic Nixon offense

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

or actually you could forego some of the crap, and consider crap in whatever meaning you care to infer, and desist from announcing what i am supposedly implying when it is mere concoction on your part.

[El Presidente]

or actually you could forego some of the crap, and consider crap in whatever meaning you care to infer, and desist from announcing what i am supposedly implying when it is mere concoction on your part.

Thanks for the help Ken

[ChanceSchmerr]

I love a good debate!

Won't wade in because I've not been to Cuba yet, so I can't comment on something I've not yet witnessed.

But do please continue!

[Ken Gargett]

Thanks for the help Ken

no charge.

[Colt45]

Colt, there is no opportunity for the Cuban people to rise up currently. Doing so would make Tiananmen square look like a Sunday picnic. You really have to visit to spend serious time in the place to understand the complete control the government has.

I understand - we've discussed this in the past and you've "politely" steered me in the right direction. Part of it is just to show my general agreement

with some of Shelby's points. Part of it is.......

If I call someone a drongo, do I have to use a smiley after it?

P.S. Believe it or not, I don't much care to talk politics with regards to my own country - I certainly don't wish to meddle in the politics of anyone else's.

[Shelby07]

or actually you could forego some of the crap, and consider crap in whatever meaning you care to infer, and desist from announcing what i am supposedly implying when it is mere concoction on your part.

I await your corrections with baited breath.

[Ken Gargett]

sorry - the machine is stopping me posting. will see if i can fix it.

[Ken Gargett]

no idea why this is happening but will work on it.

[Ken Gargett]

“There are many countries that don't have access to US medicines. In fact, just about every country in the world that has weak intellectual property laws don't have access to modern medicines developed here or anywhere else in the world. I know a bit about this since I have been involved with a company who wants to bring new medical technologies to India for the past year.”

This is a bit of a side issue but the time I've spent in Africa and Asia suggests this is not so. Some pharmaceutical companies are quick to sell what they can for a buck (don't forget that these are corporations out to make a buck, not govts or charities) and much of what I saw dumped in some of these places was stuff I was told had not been approved by US authorities but that didn't stop them. But that is a matter for another time.

That aside, you really need to stop telling me what I am implying when there is no basis to it. If you want to debate this, fine, but there is no point if you simply intend to keep throwing up diversions and untruths. I am not implying that the US is the only place Cuba can get medicine however, as the major developed nation in the vicinity, it is certainly a potential vital source, but it seems that profits are more important than lives (sadly, I agree that is how things seem to work). But I wonder if you really understand just how this embargo impacts on Cuba. If I understand correctly, you seem to think that if the Cubans can't get something from the States, they can get it anywhere else. Bit difficult when the economy is in the toilet, and that is not solely due to the embargo but it has certainly played a major part and if you think otherwise, then you have your head in the sand.

http://' target="_blank">Out of interest, have you been to Cuba and seen the effects (or alleged non-effects as you seem to think is the situation)? There are endless examples of how this has impacted on Cuba. Rob's statement re the US legislation should have given you an insight into the problems that the embargo causes “You may not be aware but the "Trading with the Enemy Act" restricts any US individual or Corporation from owning shares/having an investment in any business which trades with Cuba. Now take a multinational company based in Europe. Take anything from farm machinery to chemicals to medicines. These multinationals have a choice of taking US investment and access to US markets (25% of the worlds GDP) or dealing directly with Cuba. Many do it via a third party (hence increasing costs to Cuba) but there are many multinationals who will not risk it.

This is the insidious part of the embargo. It intentionally drags in non US interests in an effort to add pain to the Cuban Government. Unfortunately it is the day to day Cubans on the street who actually feel the pain.”

I'll give you a small example. A mate had organised a major business convention in Havana for a European group of companies, manufacturing or motoring – I forget which, and I believe that several hundred businessmen, representatives, family members etc were all attending. It is something that would have brought much needed money into the Cuban economy. Americans were not involved at all, however one of the companies that was involved in a minor way had offices in the States and the word was passed back that because of this, the those Europeans attached to that company could not attend any convention in Cuba and therefore the entire thing had to be shifted. It was the most ridiculous, tenuous link but the American govt has the arrogance to impose itself in this manner. And yet again, the Cuban people suffer. And all it does is provide the regime with more ammunition that America is the bad guy. Braindead stuff.

“As for other American products, I've read that they are readily available in Cuba, as they are imported from other countries. The fact that the people can't afford them is not the fault of the embargo.”

This is just factually wrong. No offence but I really think you need to go and understand this embargo a little more.

“I also acknowledged that no one knows it they would be worse off or not without it and we will never know, but that doesn't mean it hasn't caused them a world of pain.”

I saw that you acknowledged the point, then you went on to say that even though we have no earthly idea what would have happened, you continue to contend that the embargo has caused the Cuban people a "world of pain." If we don't know if things would have been better or worse then how can you argue the point? There are many poor countries who trade with and receive aid from the US. In fact, there is an island right next to Cuba that is in pretty poor shape(Haiti) yet there is no embargo there.”

What I am referring to is a bigger picture in the sense of sliding doors. But I can understand that may have been confusing and apologise. The simple fact, denied by no one who has seen it, experienced it, studied it, lived it, is that the embargo, unilaterally imposed by the USA, has caused enormous pain to Cuba and the Cuban people. But wasn't that the entire point of imposing it?

Yet again, we have seen the entire world condemn it in the UN (bar the US's lapdogs, Palua and Israel – and before that starts another debate, I mean in the sense that they have cravenly voted in support of the USA for whatever money/support/protection they can get from the USA in turn) but apparently the entire world is wrong again. If you continue to delude yourself that the embargo has not hurt the Cubans then we are wasting our time.

[Ken Gargett]

part 2

“But the tourist industry is alive and well in Cuba today.” The tourist industry is in tatters. The figures reveal that numbers visiting are way down. A large part of that is that a govt to the north with some 300 million people stops its own people from travelling there (if an Aussie govt pulled that stunt with any country, you wouldn't be able to book a ticket for years, such would be the queue). The Cubans simply have no real expertise or access to many of things that could have hugely improved tourism here – again, much (certainly not all) of that is down to the embargo.”

Again, your statement makes no sense. Since it's never been legal for US citizens to travel to Cuba I don't see how fluctuations in Cuba's tourism can be blamed on more or less Americans vacationing in Cuba. Outside of people who are smoking Cuban cigars, I don't know of a lot of people who want to vacation in Cuba. When the subject of vacations come up, I hear Europe, Asia, Disneyland, Alaska and cruises. Rarely do people jump up and say "Ya' know, I'd love to go to Cuba, but the damn embargo won't let me." Those Americans who have desired to do so in the past have easily gotten around the restrictions, and I assume those methods still exist.”

You've had a crack at me for alleged incorrect facts but surely what you have said here has to be a major typo or you don't have a clue about Cuban or even American history. Where the hell does 'its never been legal for US citizens to travel to Cuba' come from? Are you serious? Bans have been imposed for several decades now but 'never'?

I don't doubt what you say about what you have heard about holidays but I can only tell you what I have heard and I really don't give a toss if you believe it or not. It may be that the subject comes up more in my discussions as if someone asks me where I have been, it is one of the answers. They may respond then as to whether they want to attend or not. A lot of Americans may desire to visit Cuba but won't go against the laws of their country and I think you'll find quite a few of your countrymen on this forum that fall into that category.

And your govt is being much tougher these days on cracking down on anyone caught going to Cuba. Some big fines.

“No doubt it is the Castro's that are responsible for a great deal of the pain but in the States, we have a nation which by and large, and granted there has been support for a few too many dictators over the years to take it very seriously, considers itself some sort of sheriff for truth and justice and human rights (in general I like to believe that the USA is well intentioned, despite their best efforts on so many occasions to convince me otherwise) and what it has done has helped entrenched the very people it claims to oppose. No embargo and I suspect that the Castro's would have been nothing more than a footnote in history by now. Democracy would have had a far better chance in Cuba if there had been no embargo.”

What country doesn't purport to be a beacon of truth and light. They all do, even Cuba. As you said in your original post, there may be other reasons, political or strategic, that they aren't lifting the embargo. The only thing that makes any sense is that up until recently it was politically expedient to not even bother, and politics factor into everything that happens in all governments around the world even in those that purport to be a beacon of truth and light. The US cannot be held responsible for every bad thing that goes on in the world. The insinuation that it can, or even that it is obligated to do so, is pure BS. To imply that the US should take every situation and do whatever it takes for the greater good unconditionally is just bellyaching. The US does more for people around the world in the way of financial aid, disaster relief and protection than any other nation in the world.”

So it is okay to crush a nation because it is politically expedient for USA politicians? How proud you must be! And where the hell do you get off suggesting I have insinuated any such thing – re the USA being responsible “for every bad thing that goes on in the world” or that I have implied “that the US should take every situation and do whatever it takes for the greater good unconditionally”. I realise that if your facts are stuffed and you don't understand what you are arguing about that is very easy to resort to the smoke and mirrors and make such completely baseless allegations. Far easier than trying to understand what is really going on or admitting you haven't got a clue.

And as for patting yourself on the back about doing more in the way of financial aid, the States is the richest nation on earth so surely that is only appropriate but you are way down the chain when it comes to a per capita basis so I wouldn't be that chuffed. I think you will find your northern neighbours for one, leave you for dead.

“US politicians have a way of making exceptions for foreign citizens. They are very anxious to open their shores to Cuban refugees because the Cuban-American population can easily swing Florida one way or the other. Maybe Cubans would be able to work here in a limited capacity and maybe they wouldn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if exceptions were made if only the people were free to try.”

Are you kidding? So anxious that under your 1995 policy (and if this has been changed recently, my apologies), anyone who doesn't actually make it to shore gets sent back, or possibly to a third country? Hardly, encouraging. Hardly 'very anxious'. Hardly welcoming.

“They could definitely work for companies in other countries around the world.”

Not really the point and do you really think that absolves the USA from its actions?

“Either way, I think you'd agree that the inability to travel outside of Cuba is doing more harm to the Cuban people than the trade embargo. Yet nothing is posted here several times a month about that situation.”

Not for a second, nor do I know anyone else who thinks that. There are certainly restrictions but it is surprising just how many Cubans have traveled outside Cuba (and returned). Cubans are no different to most people. They are very proud of their country and they love it. They may not like their govt but you don't find scenes like outside the US embassy in Saigon in 75. Most Cubans want to live there. But I believe that most do not want to live under the tyranny of Castro or the iniquitous embargo.

“When Castro took away the land and the freedoms of the Cuban people the US opened itself up to Cuban refugees. It still does so to this day. The Cuban refugees and the Cuban-American population have been the biggest reason that the US has not lifted the embargo.”

It still does so but only if you make dry land. Otherwise, tough luck and back to Havana, where the States knows the reception awaiting them will not be a happy one.

As for the reason it has not been lifted – VOTES. You can tie it up in whatever fancy explanation you like but the sad, pathetic fact is that it comes down to votes.

““So how about laying the blame on the person who has 100% control over what happens in Cuba... Castro.” That is the most simplistic thing I have heard in a long time. Do you really think that any leader or indeed government has 100% control over what happens in their country, especially a small country? Do you think Obama and/or the US govt has 100% control over what happens in the USA? It doesn't work that way.

You're picking nits here. Are you implying that unless the US lifts the embargo that there is absolutely nothing that Castro can do short of kissing the US's posterior that would improve the lives of the Cuban people, and if he refuses to do that the US will continue to do all sorts of horrible things to make life miserable for the Cubans? Of course they don't have 100% control of the people, but he does have 100% control over what the government does. And I'd submit that he has a hell of a lot more control over the Cuban people than the US government has over me.”

Again, I am implying no such thing. Why do you keep coming up with this crap, if not as a diversion and because you don't have a reasonable response.

“I don't disagree with you there, but that doesn't address the point that the US is not responsible for the suffering of the Cuban people, Castro is.”

This seems to be the major disagreement. No argument that some responsibility must fall, and continue to do so, on the Castro's but to attempt to absolve the USA is to completely disregard reality. The entire world, other than perhaps yourself, knows that the embargo hurts the Cuban people.

“take a look at the title of this thread. "crippling Cuba embargo?" C'mon... why are so many people so quick to jump onto and defend this ridiculous statement. The embargo is stupid, ineffective and useless. But it is not the "crippling" factor that is suppressing the Cuban people that so many here seem to be so quick to imply and defend.”

Ditto re above.

“I apologize for the tone of this next part in advance.

I am an American. Not a blind, flag waving, "my country can do no wrong" American, but there are things that I am proud of. We help a lot of people around the world. I believe that while we aren't perfect, we do more good than harm and, bankrupt or not, we are always the first ones to offer aid and defense to the rest of the world. And oddly enough, if we fail to we seem to get condemned for it. One thing I can say without fear that anyone here will argue with is that my country has offered me a much better life than Castro has given to the Cuban people. And stupid as the embargo may be, I can't sit by and watch people knock my country while they say little or nothing about a little tin horn murdering dictator who has taken away any individual freedom the Cuban people might have once had.”

No one should ever apologise for being proud of their country or who they are and what I have said relates to America, or the govt thereof, purely around the specifics of the matters raised here. It is not any sort of broad all-out attack on the States or condemnation thereof. As I said elsewhere, I nearly ended up there on a permanent basis. Loved my time there and could very easily go back, but I am completely at odds with the policy re Cuba. It is outdated, useless, cruel, stupid and should be lifted.

And I do not mean any offence here but the vast majority of what you have said does come across as blind, flag waving, "my country can do no wrong". Perhaps we have a different perspective on that.

A couple of final points, I acknowledged the more good than harm previously but with respect, the 'we are always the first ones to offer aid and defense' – that is a massive statement. Not sure the Rwandans would agree.

I do think your country deserves to be 'knocked' in relation to this but there should be no suggestion that I and others have said nothing about Castro. Quite the opposite, as a perusal of many threads will confirm. But again, what the States doesn't seem to understand is that they have played into his hands by maintaining the embargo. Sure, he would have made good PR had any president had the sense or decency to lift it but so what. It would have done so much for the Cuban people and I am convinced led to Castro's downfall a long time ago.

[Shelby07]

Holy guacamole! What an incomprehensible mess. Where did you learn to put pencil to paper?

I'm gonna try to break this diatribe up into manageable pieces and maybe clean up the format a bit. I will say that I would be embarrassed to publish such a disjointed post if I was expecting someone else to read and reply.

There are many countries that don't have access to US medicines. In fact, just about every country in the world that has weak intellectual property laws don't have access to modern medicines developed here or anywhere else in the world. I know a bit about this since I have been involved with a company who wants to bring new medical technologies to India for the past year.

This is a bit of a side issue but the time I've spent in Africa and Asia suggests this is not so. Some pharmaceutical companies are quick to sell what they can for a buck (don't forget that these are corporations out to make a buck, not govts or charities) and much of what I saw dumped in some of these places was stuff I was told had not been approved by US authorities but that didn't stop them. But that is a matter for another time.

It's a bit of a side issue that you use to tell me I got it wrong? Tricky.

I didn't get it wrong. Sure there are major pharma companies all over the world and they sell lots of generic drugs that are out of patent protection, but major NEW drugs that American companies have developed and spent billions on getting them through FDA approval will never see the shores of countries with weak IPL's.

To help explain this, lets take a new drug like Azerra by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) recently approved for treatment of leukemia. Now GSK has a presence all over the world, but you will never find Azerra in any country that has weak IPL's. The reason is that the drug will be reverse engineered and manufactured by companies within those countries. If that should happen then GSK has no recourse, and the billions of dollars spent to develop the drug and get it approved would go right down the drain.

Now, does GSK offer drugs in other countries? Yes. What do they offer? Aspirin, Naproxyn, allergy drugs, or anything else that is no longer protected by us patents. They also offer other drugs that are not approved in the US that may address ailments local to the population, such as infant diarrhea. Not every drug in the world has to be approved by the US, only the ones sold here.

Who manufactures these drugs? Any number of companies, many of which are not associated with any US or multinational companies. Can Cuba import any of these drugs? Yes, in a heartbeat.

That aside, you really need to stop telling me what I am implying when there is no basis to it. If you want to debate this, fine, but there is no point if you simply intend to keep throwing up diversions and untruths.

You really need to quit whining. This is a discussion and sometimes things are misunderstood. I've asked you to point out the misunderstandings.

I am not implying that the US is the only place Cuba can get medicine however, as the major developed nation in the vicinity, it is certainly a potential vital source, but it seems that profits are more important than lives (sadly, I agree that is how things seem to work).

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds as if you might be implying that lives should trump profits. Yes, in a perfect socialist world everyone would work their ass off for the betterment if humankind and not worry about silly little things like cost, profit margins, stockholders, fiduciary responsibilities, legal ramifications [strains of John Lennon's "Imagine" fill the air] etc, etc, etc. But this is a capitalism vs socialism argument that we can address if you'd like.

Let me grab the original quote from your first post...

How do you think parents in Cuba feel being told that they cannot get certain medicines for their kids because they are made in America and unless Cuba, an independent nation whether the States likes it or not, bends over and does exactly what Uncle Sam says. Meanwhile, tough luck. Try and die peacefully.

This is totally unworthy of this disussion. It drips of diversionary drama. It has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand and is designed to sway using emotions, not facts. And, in fact, it is totally incorrect. As I explained above, Cuba can get any drug they want as long as it's not a drug that is owned and patented by a single company. And as a country that does not protect products under US Patent laws, Cuba can't get them. But it has nothing to do with the embargo, and it certainly doesn't mean that the US is killing little children and forcing their parents to tell them that they are going to die because of the big, bad U S of A.

But I wonder if you really understand just how this embargo impacts on Cuba. If I understand correctly, you seem to think that if the Cubans can't get something from the States, they can get it anywhere else. Bit difficult when the economy is in the toilet, and that is not solely due to the embargo but it has certainly played a major part and if you think otherwise, then you have your head in the sand.

Nope, I'm smiling in the sunshine. I've already said that I understand exactly how the embargo works.

You may find this link interesting. Seems like a few wholesalers in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Canada are taking pity on the Cuban people and making our stuff available.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2007...080210184_x.htm

If you really believe that Cubans can't get American products then you must really believe that we can't get Cuban cigars, rum or coffee here in the states. Perhaps someone does have their head in the sand.

Out of interest, have you been to Cuba and seen the effects (or alleged non-effects as you seem to think is the situation)? There are endless examples of how this has impacted on Cuba. Rob's statement re the US legislation should have given you an insight into the problems that the embargo causes “You may not be aware but the "Trading with the Enemy Act" restricts any US individual or Corporation from owning shares/having an investment in any business which trades with Cuba. Now take a multinational company based in Europe. Take anything from farm machinery to chemicals to medicines. These multinationals have a choice of taking US investment and access to US markets (25% of the worlds GDP) or dealing directly with Cuba. Many do it via a third party (hence increasing costs to Cuba) but there are many multinationals who will not risk it.

This is the insidious part of the embargo. It intentionally drags in non US interests in an effort to add pain to the Cuban Government. Unfortunately it is the day to day Cubans on the street who actually feel the pain.”

I have not been to Cuba. Have you been to Iraq? I'm sure you have an opinion on the war.

Again, I understand exactly how the act works.

I'll give you a small example. A mate had organised a major business convention in Havana for a European group of companies, manufacturing or motoring – I forget which, and I believe that several hundred businessmen, representatives, family members etc were all attending. It is something that would have brought much needed money into the Cuban economy. Americans were not involved at all, however one of the companies that was involved in a minor way had offices in the States and the word was passed back that because of this, the those Europeans attached to that company could not attend any convention in Cuba and therefore the entire thing had to be shifted. It was the most ridiculous, tenuous link but the American govt has the arrogance to impose itself in this manner. And yet again, the Cuban people suffer. And all it does is provide the regime with more ammunition that America is the bad guy. Braindead stuff.

Well, we haven't really touched on this possibility yet, but is it starting to sound like perhaps the Castros just might have a reason to start talking rather than continually thumbing their noses at the US to help the people of Cuba? Ken, it's the way the world works. You want something, you give something up. Nobody rides for free.

Just curious. How much of that foreign money do you think would have gone to the people and how much would have gone to the govt?

That's about all I can handle tonight. I'll try to continue tomorrow.

[bunburyist]

Out of interest, have you been to Cuba and seen the effects (or alleged non-effects as you seem to think is the situation)? There are endless examples of how this has impacted on Cuba. Rob's statement re the US legislation should have given you an insight into the problems that the embargo causes “You may not be aware but the "Trading with the Enemy Act" restricts any US individual or Corporation from owning shares/having an investment in any business which trades with Cuba. Now take a multinational company based in Europe. Take anything from farm machinery to chemicals to medicines. These multinationals have a choice of taking US investment and access to US markets (25% of the worlds GDP) or dealing directly with Cuba. Many do it via a third party (hence increasing costs to Cuba) but there are many multinationals who will not risk it.

This is the insidious part of the embargo. It intentionally drags in non US interests in an effort to add pain to the Cuban Government. Unfortunately it is the day to day Cubans on the street who actually feel the pain.”

I'll give you a small example. A mate had organised a major business convention in Havana for a European group of companies, manufacturing or motoring – I forget which, and I believe that several hundred businessmen, representatives, family members etc were all attending. It is something that would have brought much needed money into the Cuban economy. Americans were not involved at all, however one of the companies that was involved in a minor way had offices in the States and the word was passed back that because of this, the those Europeans attached to that company could not attend any convention in Cuba and therefore the entire thing had to be shifted. It was the most ridiculous, tenuous link but the American govt has the arrogance to impose itself in this manner. And yet again, the Cuban people suffer. And all it does is provide the regime with more ammunition that America is the bad guy. Braindead stuff.

Perhaps worth throwing my 2 pence in for just this part.

I am 100% in agreement with this. The US is the dominant trading player in the world, and by some margin in the western hemisphere. Without a shadow of a doubt, if I took on a big construction project in Cuba, then tried to win work in Florida it would end in failure. It happens everywhere in the world. Whether through direct agreement or tacit implication - much like over here in Asia with working in Taiwan or China - you often have a choice between one or the other. I'd rather have the US market to play in than the Cuban one.

Politically loaded trade bullying is what it is, and it's been going on since the ancient Egyptians.

Holy guacamole! What an incomprehensible mess. Where did you learn to put pencil to paper?

steady on mate. I suspect that (knowledge of sporting issues aside) old man Ken is one of the more educated dudes on this forum.

[asmith]

steady on mate. I suspect that (knowledge of sporting issues aside) old man Ken is one of the more educated dudes on this forum.

[Ken Gargett]

Holy guacamole! What an incomprehensible mess. Where did you learn to put pencil to paper?

I'm gonna try to break this diatribe up into manageable pieces and maybe clean up the format a bit. I will say that I would be embarrassed to publish such a disjointed post if I was expecting someone else to read and reply.

I guess we have seen that is it far easier to make personal attacks than it is to deal with those inconvenient little details like facts. I 'learnt', if you really must know, at a number of establishments around the world, including universities both here and in the UK. A large number of editors, and a few law firms, here and in both the UK and DC, didn't seem to have quite the same problem as yourself. Certainly, there were parts I could have tidied up a little more in responding to you but I guess one writes for one's audience. As I indicated, for reasons I am not aware of, the previous post would not register when I first tried. In the end, that was the best I could do and the only way that it would take it. If it doesn't suit your standards, well, you can probably guess I'm not going to lose one iota of sleep over that, nor am I going to feel the slightest bit embarrassed. Perhaps you should worry about yourself. What I would be embarrassed about would be if I'd actually put my name to some of the inanities you have been so kind as to share with us. Still, we did hear that 'no child left behind' had not been a complete success.

You really need to quit whining. This is a discussion and sometimes things are misunderstood.

When someone decides to run their argument by continually suggesting I made implications, when there is absolutely no evidence to support that, and by putting words in my mouth then I think I have a legitimate grievance. It is a tactic of someone typically bereft of a substantial argument. If you want to call that whining, knock yourself out. I really don't give a rat's what you want to call it but I am more than justified in objecting to it.

I've asked you to point out the misunderstandings.

I did point them out. Each time. Not sure I can do more except suggest you perhaps read more closely. I could type slower but I'm not sure it will help.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds as if you might be implying that lives should trump profits. Yes, in a perfect socialist world everyone would work their ass off for the betterment if humankind and not worry about silly little things like cost, profit margins, stockholders, fiduciary responsibilities, legal ramifications [strains of John Lennon's "Imagine" fill the air] etc, etc, etc. But this is a capitalism vs socialism argument that we can address if you'd like.

I don't think that a single person who knows me even vaguely would associate me with socialism. Most would think that one of the more bizarre statements they have ever heard. I'm not certain that a degree of concern for the lives of other humans changes that.

This is totally unworthy of this disussion. It drips of diversionary drama. It has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand and is designed to sway using emotions, not facts. And, in fact, it is totally incorrect. As I explained above, Cuba can get any drug they want as long as it's not a drug that is owned and patented by a single company. And as a country that does not protect products under US Patent laws, Cuba can't get them. But it has nothing to do with the embargo, and it certainly doesn't mean that the US is killing little children and forcing their parents to tell them that they are going to die because of the big, bad U S of A.

We've been through this and' leaving aside the issue of selective quoting, I have a lot better things to do the rehash but in the same para in which you accuse me of using emotions we get “that the US is killing little children and forcing their parents to tell them that they are going to die because of the big, bad U S of A.” Something about pots and kettles?

Nope, I'm smiling in the sunshine. I've already said that I understand exactly how the embargo works.

If you really believe that Cubans can't get American products then you must really believe that we can't get Cuban cigars, rum or coffee here in the states. Perhaps someone does have their head in the sand.

Yet you seem to have a different view to almost anyone else I've encountered. Everyone else wrong? There is no point in rehashing here as well. I simply don't think you have the slightest idea about the embargo. And do you really believe Cubans and Americans are on the same footing? There's that perfect world you mentioned.

I have not been to Cuba. Have you been to Iraq? I'm sure you have an opinion on the war.

No, though I have spent time in Iran, Jordan, Syria and most of the other countries in the vicinity. Of course I have opinions on the War but I'm also not so arrogant that I don't recognise that if I had visited Iraq and spent a reasonable amount of time there that I would be far better informed about the situation.

Again, I understand exactly how the act works.

Again, I can only respond to your comments and nothing I have seen in them suggests you have the slightest idea.

Well, we haven't really touched on this possibility yet, but is it starting to sound like perhaps the Castros just might have a reason to start talking rather than continually thumbing their noses at the US to help the people of Cuba?

Do you really not get it? The embargo is to the benefit of the Castro's. It plays right into their hands. Why the hell do you think that after almost 50 years, they have not done anything? If the States was half serious about helping the Cuban people they would lift the embargo. And as I have said, I believe that had they done so a long time ago, there is every chance that the Castro's would have been swept away long ago. It is now an utterly cynical political exercise. When the votes are for it, it will be gone so quickly.

Ken, it's the way the world works. You want something, you give something up. Nobody rides for free.

And please don't patronise me about how the world works. I've represented multinationals, banks, international entities and so on in London, DC, Sydney and other places. I reckon I have a fair idea how the world works. The fact that America gets to be the bully in the schoolyard, doesn't make it right.

That's about all I can handle tonight. I'll try to continue tomorrow.

Don't bother on my account. I've had more than enough. Rob has requested, I think his words related to taking the high moral ground, so I'm finished with this. There were a number of other matters raised but I have neither the time nor inclination. I don't think you and I have had any disagreement on any other issue, certainly none I recall, and hopefully that will be the future, but on this, and no offence (actually, given the way you began your post, I really don't give that rat's whether it causes deep offence), but I have absolutely no respect for your views and the manner in which you have argued them.

[Padrino]

I will say that I would be embarrassed to publish such a disjointed post if I was expecting someone else to read and reply.

Honestly, what a condescending prick.

Bear in mind that not everyone is 100% computer literate.

[El Presidente]

Don't bother on my account. I've had more than enough. Rob has requested, I think his words related to taking the high moral ground

Actually No....I said "Take the High Road."

You can only discuss issues like this if all parties take the High Road. For anyone confused that entails playing the ball and not the man.

Have a great weekend

[Shelby07]

So let me get this straight...

Ken disagrees with something I post so he comes out of right field and tell me that my ideas are full of crap.

Prez kind of, sort of tries to apologize for him in a "Cheers" kinda way but Ken comes back with another insult at me free of charge.

Ken feels I put words in his mouth so he announces he's going to clarify things. He then puts a rambling post out with all the readability of something a 3 year old might produce and expects me to read through it and answer.

Castro, shouldn't have to do anything to relieve the suffering of the Cuban people because the US is a tyrannical oppressive country and all it has to do is lift the embargo to fix the woes of Cuba.

I'm a condescending prick.

Got it!

[MontrealRon]

Montreal I will take a different slant on your post. Cubans are poor because in the main they are well educated and highly literate and all forms of opportunity and freedoms we take for granted have been stripped away. When you are educated this is the cruelest blow of all.

Hi, Prez - You have touched on a crucial point here. How did the Cuban people get so well educated and highly literate, if not for the revolution? Yes, I understand that Cuba is a dictatorship, but that was always the case. Previous dictatorships were controlled by a small group of American corporations, Mafia, and the small wealthy Cuban elite. The difference is that this current dictatorship, at least in earlier days, attempted to act in the interests of the common people, to raise their standard of living. In this, (again, compare them to their neighbours), they have been largely successful. All this, however, comes at a price. Whether that was a price worth paying is not for us, in our comfort, to judge.

It seems to me that the revolution has come to a point of crisis. The quality of life in Cuba has been stagnating for some time, if not actually regressing. As Raul consolidates his authority, the military, which he has always led, is becoming dominant politically and economically. Much of the country's arable land is untouched scrub, while so much food has to be imported. In the cities, there seems to be lots of heathy young folks hanging around all day, not working. Prostitution is flourishing, and now that Raul has opened up the hotels to Cuban guests, it is flagrantly practised even in the resorts.

There are hints that illegal drugs may be becoming a problem, after years of success in keeping the country relatively drug free. And now, they are even messing with the basic food supply that every Cuban has come to count on. No more free cafeteria lunches at work. There is even talk of eliminating the monthly rations! Drastic cutbacks on energy use, even eliminating air conditioning in workplaces during the heat of summer, has put people in a foul mood.

Cubans suffered real hardship during the "special economic period" following the collapse of the Soviet Union, with the loss of the massive Soviet aid that the country had become dependant on.

I am not so sure that they are prepared to go through that again.

If this government wants to survive, other than through brutal force, there has to be some serious economic relief, and a major emphasis on grass-roots participation in decision making.

There must be some space for individual initiative if the economy is to revive.

They could look to Vietnam, rather than China, for a good example.

The question is whether Raul and his cohorts are really interested in preserving the gains of the revolution, or whether maintaining their own power is paramount.