The relative H argument for Habanos and a few questions

[El Presidente]

I have been asked to post my thoughts on the best relative humidity at which Habanos cigars should be stored.

I have given it a lot of thought and the argument is perhaps not as cut and dried as I expected.

Within the humidor here at CZAR house, we store cigars at 68% RH (63 F) We generally hold 7-10 dasy supply within our humidor and so it is important to hold the cigars at almost the optimum humidity for the vast majority of cigars.

In our longterm storage warehouse we store the cigars at 70-72% RH and at a lower temp (14 degrees Celsius).

In my private humidor I store my Cuban cigars at 65% relative humidity. However I generally place the cigars I am going to smoke over the weekend in a dry box (60% RH) on Friday night when I get home from Rugby training. This is ony for cigars which I will smoke over the weekend.

Lately however I have gone back to 68% for my Robusto's and Torps as they are more flavoursome again.

Using the above method (drybox at 60% RH)worked perfectly for my preferred long panetela vitola's and anything up to a 42 ring guage but I found my Robusto's and Torps to lose flavour.

So now I keep my Robusto's and Torps out of the dry box and smoke them at 65% RH.

Yesterday I tried a Robusto out of the CZAR humidor at 68% RH and it had me questioning again tha validity of lower RH for my bigger ring guage cigars.

Has anyone also experienced this? Differing relative humidity works best for different cigars? If so, what are your theories as to why and what is your storage solution?

[Tampa1257]

I keep a couple of Desk Top humidors filled with various cigars that I may want to smoke within the next week or so at 62%-65% Rh. I keep everything from 35 rg to 52 rg inside. In my storage cabinet, I keep the Rh a little lower, which means that the Rh is typically around 60%-63% while at a temp of 58-60 degrees (F). So my longer term storage is a little dryer than my immediate smoking supply.

I have not tried keeping larger rg cigars at a higher Rh and the thinner rg cigars at a lower rg before, but may just have to give it a try to experiment.

[genevapics]

I have just the one humidor. RH is at 65% (beads). As far as I can tell, my smokes taste just fine, but I really do not have enough experience to say either way.

[habanohal]

I never notice a differance, and I have been through the testing of %69 down to %63. No dry boxing. Every morning I just open up my cabinet and spend bout 20 minutes decideing the 4 I want for that days work ( Door closed while decideing ;-) )

Any burn problems I get I chalk up to smokeing fast, which it burns hotter and gives the cigar an extra umph flavor.

But when you are talking RH, There is a theory about it all . %65 RH is true at 70 degrees. But a reading of %65RH at 65 degrees, isnt a true %65 RH.... get what I am saying??

[Smokin Bulldog]

I keep mine at 65%, but I can honestly say that I have never put that much thought into it. Now I think that I will swap some things around and and see If I can tell the difference.

[skid11]

El Prez I think your logic is sound. I have a "dry box" for upcoming smokes as I find the lower RH aids the burn process. Nothing worse than trying to keep a "soggy" cigar alight.

However, I can't see that in the short term that this would impact (on the larger ring gauges) in relation to flavour !!! I find it interesting that you have noticed this change.

[Claudius]

I've found that keeping the cigars at lower RH makes them burn better, but also taste a little "sharper", slightly more bitterness.

For long term storage, a lower RH is usually considered better so as to slow down the aging process, but for immediate smoking I like to keep my cigars at 70 - 73 % RH. I find the smoke to be a little "thicker" and the burn less good; by no means is the cigar "wet", but it burns less evenly. I like the smoke better, though. I dont really mind the cigar burning unevenly; on the contrary, to me, this adds to the charm of a product that's hand made in a country such as Cuba, with all the imperfections that implies.

There is a kind of beauty in imperfection

[cigarnv]

When discussing RH the core issue is the moisture content of the tobacco. At 70%RH cigars are approximately 13.5% moisture, and at 60%RH moisture content drops to approximately 11.3%. Temperature's between 40F and 90F have virtually no impact on moisture content. In any case a 16-18%difference in moisture content is quite substantial.

Some speculate that the higher moisture content would "tame" down the flavor profile given moisture turns to vapor in the burning process and dilutes the smoke. Others speculate that the amount of moisture in the smoking environment also impacts the concentration of flavor as higher humidity provides additional moisture.

I store my cigars in the 61-62% range as I feel they taste is better, burn better and age better. I also find that drier cigars have less problems with burn and splitting when smoked in 90%+ humidity (typical Virginia summer). This is just my opinion and one has to keep in mind that my palate is average at best.

[anacostiakat]

Living in DC I agree with Reid's observations. I think 62 or 63 for the humidity level works best for me.

Now to figure out how to get me a chilled unit!

[Hoops]

I keep my main humidor at around 65-67%, and I usually dry box (when I remember!) for about 24-48 hours before smoking.

Reading this makes me think I should experiment a little.

[olotti]

I like to keep mine between 62-65%, any higher and I think the smokes get to wet and taste more muted even though the smoke may be thicker. but so far 62-65% seems to be good with 65% being optimal.

[Wiley]

I'm sure it's a matter of preference. I've messed around a little with various settings, and I generally prefer 63-65% for all of my cigars.

[SmokinLightning]

I keep my humi around 66-68%. Played around with the levels a bit, never noticed a difference in taste, but started seeing some splitting wrappers during smoking at around 71%, and some uneven burns at anything lower than 65%.

My temps are probably higher than most, 70 - 76 F is the norm. That hasnt seemed to have much of an effect either, and no beetle problems as of yet.

[Guest cohiba]

I have a cool chart that compares humidity and temperature with how they directly effect eachother. Some of you have seen this but some "maybe" havent. I refer to it constantly !! Hope it helps some of you.

Temp & RH = 70 degrees - 70% RH

80- 49%

79-52%

78-53%

77-55%

76-57%

75-59%

74-61%

73-63%

72-65%

71-68%

70-70%

69-72%

68-75%

67-78%

66-80%

65-83%

64-86%

63-89%

62-92%

61-96%

60- not possible

This has helped me keep a more stable enviroment in my desktops and "igloodor's". Living on the coast of central california it getts very cold, and when it warms up most of the homes dont have air conditioning (cause we really dont need it), but i adjust my humidifiers accordingly, or just remove them sometimes. I do not store various ring's at different levels. But we all need to realize how the temp directly effects RH !!!

Ultimatly i have an Aristocrat full climate controll cabinet on its way this will ensure the summer time temp doesnt effect my collection.

Now that i will have 2 desktop's available i will probably lean towards the dry box idea !!!

This also suppots Habanohal's observation about true RH !!!

Thanks for all you input, making me think as well.

Cohiba

[Guest crossbow]

Rob..

I have about 12 - 14 humidors(half of it is 100 or more count) and one cooledor. I have tried to take the guesswork out of RH by acquiring more than a handful of 65% Boveda packs for all the humidors (for the two level humi, each level has a 65% boveda pack). But for the cooler, I use 65% beads. All digital hygrometers are used a monitoring systems

I may be wrong but I find smoking any cigar that has been stored in humidity of greater than 70% is difficult especially in the draw. So like you, as a precaution, I dry box before smoking - the small gauge cigars maybe because of their size and the probability of leaf expansion at a higher humidity. Maybe a bigger gauge cigar has more space for leaf expansion at higher humidity as compared to gauge 42 or less.

But then again that is just what I do, and does not reflect what other people think or do.

Crossbow

PS

Jim(ARGON) you're the doctor in chemistry, you can jump in anytime

[El Presidente]

Some great input.

This week I will take 6 2000 ERDM GC and split them into two groups of three. The first three we will himidify at 69-70% RH and the second at 65% RH. I and two other tasters (I will involve Ken) will do a review.

By no way a definitive answer but just another piece to the puzzle.

[Claudius]

» I have a cool chart that compares humidity and temperature with how they

» directly effect eachother. Some of you have seen this but some "maybe"

» havent. I refer to it constantly !! Hope it helps some of you.

»

» Temp & RH = 70 degrees - 70% RH

»

» 80- 49%

» 79-52%

» 78-53%

» 77-55%

» 76-57%

» 75-59%

» 74-61%

» 73-63%

» 72-65%

» 71-68%

» 70-70%

» 69-72%

» 68-75%

» 67-78%

» 66-80%

» 65-83%

» 64-86%

» 63-89%

» 62-92%

» 61-96%

» 60- not possible

»

» This has helped me keep a more stable enviroment in my desktops and

» "igloodor's". Living on the coast of central california it getts very

» cold, and when it warms up most of the homes dont have air conditioning

» (cause we really dont need it), but i adjust my humidifiers accordingly,

» or just remove them sometimes. I do not store various ring's at different

» levels. But we all need to realize how the temp directly effects RH !!!

»

» Ultimatly i have an Aristocrat full climate controll cabinet on its way

» this will ensure the summer time temp doesnt effect my collection.

»

» Now that i will have 2 desktop's available i will probably lean towards

» the dry box idea !!!

»

» This also suppots Habanohal's observation about true RH !!!

»

» Thanks for all you input, making me think as well.

»

»

» Cohiba

Temperature affects the relative humidity in the AIR inside the humidor, agreed.

However, temperature doesnt affect the water content in the cigar as much as you would think, telling from the RH variations in the AIR inside the humidor: Kinetic Theory of Gases tells us that the higher the temperature, the less enclined the water molecules will be to bind to the protein and carbon molecules that make up the cigar. Therefore, at say 70% RH, the water content in a cigar will be pretty much the same, whether temperature is 65 or 75 degrees F.

Cigars will foul at RH > 80 or 85% and dry out at RH < 50 or 45%, no matter what the temperature is. Take this chart as an indication of how RH in the AIR varies according to temperature, not as an absolute reference for cigar storage.

[Ginseng]

Wow,

This sounds like two streams of information are at play and they are both related.

First, Fohiba's table reminds me of the relative humidity-absolute moisture content discussion. There was some guy who proposed that what should be maintained is the absolute moisture content and not the relative humidity and not the relative humidity. He was vilified for this contention.

Second, the question is do different cigars smoke differently when equilibrated at different humidity levels? And the related question, do cigars age differently at different humidity levels?

On the first, point, it is my contention that relative humidity is the valid control parameter. The simple reason is that being constructed entirely of natural materials, it is the natural relation of these materials to the environment that is the proper condition to maintain. That is to say, leaf matter becomes drier when colder and wetter when warmer.

However, the smoking environment can also play a large factor and is a different but related consideration. On this point, I can understand that if your environment is 90%RH, then a cigar kept at drier conditions might have a more favorable smoking response. The converse is true, a cigar is better moister when smoked in a dry environment. This is based on my experience smoking in 45F/30% New England winters and 85F/85% summers.

On the second point, I've found that around 65-68% all cigars tend to store and smoke well for me. I do move smokes to drier environment if they seem to be rolled tight. This is a play on odds as sometimes tightly rolled cigars draw fine. Fresh, tight robustos and piramides get this treatment.

I have no storage over 5 years and so have not had to test the 58-62% condition for that.

Wilkey

[Guest cohiba]

I have been smoking cigars for about 2 years now. This chart was shared with me to help me with some storage questions. I am learning everyday, as with all of us. My hmidors ultimatly right now have been at 67 degrees / 68% for many mnths now, my sticks smoke great. However, when it does get warm, I do remove my humidifies, and i do see a change quickly in the appereance and feal of my sticks. Simple been using that chart to help me understand what is happening.

[CigarZen]

» Some great input.

»

» This week I will take 6 2000 ERDM GC and split them into two groups of

» three. The first three we will himidify at 69-70% RH and the second at 65%

» RH. I and two other tasters (I will involve Ken) will do a review.

»

» By no way a definitive answer but just another piece to the puzzle.

Get idea Rob -- I am interested in hearing the results.

I used to store my cigars at about 67-68% RH and had my share of draw problem. So I dropped the humidity down to about 61% and cigars from the same box seemed to me to lose some flavor. I noticed this over a number of marques and RGs. So I gradually, over a number of months, increased the RH and the flavor returned. But kept going all the way up to 67 or 68 % and the draw problems returned in too many sticks. I settled on 65%.

BUT recently I was favored with a few of Cigarnv's stock, whivh are stored at 61%, and I must say that they burned really well, better than many of mine, and tasted excellent -- a sharper focused flavor. I am toying with the idea of inching the RH down a couple points.

So I await the results of your experiment Rob.

[connoiseur29]

I have been trying to figure out a solution, but there is so much variability. The one thing I know is that when the humidity creeps up to 72 or 73% I'm probably going to have to relight the cigar a number of times. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a humidor with different chambers that each possessed a different humidity level. In the same way that ships pass through locks to get through the suez and panama canals, the same could hold true in a humidor. That way you could rotate the cigars that you are going to smoke into a lower-close-to-smoking-day-humidity level. On the other hand, if we were to be ultra-scientific, we would smoke cigars much like Rob's experiment and try to establish an optimum humidity level for each specific vitola and then group them in this humidor. thoughts? questions? comments?

[Colt45]

In general, I try to keep my humidors between 65% and 68%. I don't get bent

out of shape if rh creeps a bit above or below. I don't employ true active two

way humidification, so seasonal changes do come in to play a bit.

I've never tried using a dry box, and to be quite honest, getting overly scientific

with the whole thing would somehow spoil some of the enjoyment.

[Smokiethebear]

I keep all of my cigars between 62%RH and 65%RH.

[Elric]

» I'm sure it's a matter of preference. I've messed around a little with

» various settings, and I generally prefer 63-65% for all of my cigars.

It is all preference. Once you presume that they are being kept at a RH that will not cause damage to the cigars it is all about preference. 60%, 62%, 65%...whatever maximizes your cigar experience is the best RH.

[Guest cohiba]

So .....Ginseng

Is the table that i have not correct, in regards to how temp effects humidity? I am in my first years of cigars, and want to learn as do many others. I think its interesting when we talk about humidity, not to many people talk about the tmp and humity combined. That was my point in posting the chart.

???Fohiba????

actually my name is Stan for those who dont know