International pricing policy by Habanos SA


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7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't think it's the same as cigarettes but it's definitely cheaper in Cuba as is the case everywhere. The issue is what "Chinese tourist" has the capital to buy dozens of boxes? I was told a few weeks ago a three Asians came in to the RyJ store and dropped $75,000. 

I'm pretty sure these are financed operations and they're going after hard to find product, not necessarily looking for deals. And I just checked--the limit for duty-free import to China is 100 cigars per person, so clearly there are exceptions being made, and that comes from the elite. 

At least we're not the Cook Islands--I just saw their duty rate: 983%!

The last time I was able to go to Cuba, I was sitting in the lounge at the old Partagas LCDH when a bus load of Chinese tourists came in. The only words I understood was when one of them picked up a box of R&J and his fellow tourist said “Boo boo boo, Cohiba!” Not sure what these kids did for a living, but loading up on Cohiba (even at 2019 Cuba prices) was definitely out of my league...

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I encourage everybody to ignore that request 

Yeah - “Smoking these may lead to bankruptcy!”

Except for the fact that there are no Cohiba,Behike/Fundadores in Shanghai,Beijing,Tianjin, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Chengdu.  If they were rolling around in boxes  of Behike etal, I would believe ha

10 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes, it is also contingent on supply remaining low as well as eliminating the gray market. If there was a surplus for the last 25 years imagine the surplus when production inevitably increases and prices supposedly double. HSA will be amazed at how much Cohiba will pile up.

The world market is not going to pay $45 for a Monte 2. Canada isn't having it--neither will anyone else. 

Are you sure? People here are gladly paying $1300+ for a box of Esplendidos. Perhaps they buy just to flip them for $2000/box or so. Easy $700+ in profit if you have a buyer(s)

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1 hour ago, SCgarman said:

Are you sure? People here are gladly paying $1300+ for a box of Esplendidos. Perhaps they buy just to flip them for $2000/box or so. Easy $700+ in profit if you have a buyer(s)

No luxury brand has limitless demand to sustain any price hikes they want. Even LVMH is being cautious with its price hikes, despite outpacing inflation. Cartier tried increasing prices by 25% over 5 years ago based on Chinese demand and it was a disaster. 

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45 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I will openly say that I hope they crash and burn at the 'luxury cigar' game!

That's definitely one thing we can hope for.

This luxury race started after they tried the exact opposite approach at the end of the 90s, trying to double or triple regular production. It did not end well, and they sold out to whoever the joint partner was and chased EL, ERs and other luxury one offs as you said. And discontinued over half their regular production catalogue.

Maybe a crash and burn the other way will teach them something.

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2 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

No luxury brand has limitless demand to sustain any price hikes they want. Even LVMH is being cautious with its price hikes, despite outpacing inflation. Cartier tried increasing prices by 25% over 5 years ago based on Chinese demand and it was a disaster. 

Look at Rolex prices. A steel Daytona (msrp$13,400) is selling for close to 50K on the secondary market. My Rolex 18K Submariner bought in '17 for $25,500 is now worth close to 50K, used! I see no near term end to none of this lunacy. Except a deep world wide recession. All so called "luxury goods" have gone batsh*t crazy in this post pandemic era.

 

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

There were two factors that I found inspiring about Cuban cigars; their taste, albeit always inconsistent, and the fact that they were a bargain. Buying Coronas at sub $100 was a cigar (Coronas) smokers dream come true.

I largely lost interest in 'the Cuban cigar' as a whole when they began to pursue cigars that I did not enjoy over those that I did. Tabacuba left me! While one could consider the next as a secondary factor, I believe it has driven the primary factor. This is the push to make the cigar a 'luxury' product. I detest the "luxury market" goal and attitude. The pursuit of 'luxury' has reduced the enjoyable custom for all, into a pursuit of collectables for a few. It is no longer about the smoking experience, but about the secondary market experience, the hunt, the pride of ownership... whatever one may want it to be, except smoking the best cigars. In the end it has made a simple pleasure for most people into an expensive pleasure for much fewer, wealthier people.

While burning tobacco is a bit of a luxury when viewed from the 'basic level of survival,' cigars are not now, nor will they ever be luxury items. Own a fine watch, or fine automobile, home or a host of other things and you will understand that 'luxury' means not only above the basic... but the best of many things. It should mean, the best in quality. And Cuban cigars are not that!

Cigars are more akin to a hotdog than a Swiss watch. There is good beer and bad beer... good tobacco and bad tobacco. I think there is no 'luxury' tobacco... there are no 'luxury' beers or hotdogs either! MHO.

After about 2008 I began to shift my intense interest in cigars, to storing them. CigarClimatoloy has kept me in the cigar game. I wonder if my precision storage devises makes them a luxury....? -LOL

I don't recognize what most of you smoke today. Those one season, one box wonders, they do not define luxury. The tobacco has not change. The girth has changed, the cheap box has become a little better, but not much.

What ever happened to smoking them? Making them smokable stoped when making them collectable started.

I am thankful that I have been able to take a niche interest and keep my broader cigar interests going. When the Tabacuba path dead ended (as I see it) I busted the brush and made it interesting again on my own level. I hope some of you will be able to do the same.

I will openly say that I hope they crash and burn at the 'luxury cigar' game!

-the Pig

When you have billionaires like Jay Z parading around Havana flexing Cohibas as he did a few years back, what does this do for Cuban cigars? They become luxury items like any other "flex" and every Joe on instagram wants to be seen with a Cohiba Espy in hand, Rolex or Patek on wrist sitting in a Ferrari, Lambo, or McLaren. Life for the instagram generation is ALL about luxury and perceived wealth. 

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About 10-15 years ago I was at a business dinner and allowed to choose the cigars for after the meal despite my young age.

And after choosing some Cohibas (regular production, I forget which vitola). I was asked (seriously) you didn't pick any $1,000 cigars did you?

Even then when no regular production CC was anywhere close to that price people outside the cigar world could conceive of it.

So yeah it could become a crazy status symbol.

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18 hours ago, ha_banos said:

Paca? What's this please?

Bales of tobacco leaf.  (apparently being sold by factory management out the back door)

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On 4/30/2022 at 5:12 AM, Greenhorn2 said:

As many boxes that you have beat me to the draw on 24:24, you should be able to open your own store with your collection!😂😂😂😂

Haha! That was so much fun. And I couldn’t of timed that better. My purchasing spree is definitely over and I’m super happy with where I’m at!
I’m at a little under 1800 right now. I’ve cut down from 7-9 a week to 4-5 a week, now I’ll toss in a weekly trip to my local B&M for a NC (it’s a great place and this is a great excuse to hang out there more). 

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Just now, Kaptain Karl said:

Haha! That was so much fun. And I couldn’t of timed that better. My purchasing spree is definitely over and I’m super happy with where I’m at!
I’m at a little under 1800 right now. I’ve cut down from 7-9 a week to 4-5 a week, now I’ll toss in a weekly trip to my local B&M for a NC (it’s a great place and this is a great excuse to hang out there more). 

Yeah, fun for some, frustrating for others. There are so many new members here that it's almost impossible to score a box anymore. Glad I stocked up when I did. Prices are crazy now.

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While I totally get where you are coming from guys, and while I feel very much like you, Ray @PigFishand @Bijan, historically you couldn’t be more off the mark!

Cigars had always been catering to the “luxury” market. Go back in time and check out how they have been branded, how they have been marketed. Go a hundred, a hundred and fifty, go two hundred years back. No working class hero could afford smoking cigars, Havanas that is. Simple folks where chewing or snuffing tobacco, smoking the tobacco pipe, or they smoked cheap(er) stogies made of local tobacco (along the lines of dry cigars of the Dutch/German type or Toscani and the like).

The Cuban handmade - imported - „premium“ cigar had always been a luxury product.

Look at the effort which had been put in their presentation at all times. There had always been luxury samplers and special humidors released by the famous Cuban producers, or by their importers. This is by no means new, and by no means is it an invention by Habanos SA or Cubatabaco.

It’s also true that cigars had become more widely affordable in relation to general buying power in recent times. But Cuba now seems wanting to capitalise again on that stance. Like it or not, HSA responsibles had been very open about it if one listened, going back to at least 2006.

As for ELs and ERs, those exactly were never meant as “luxury” editions. Initially, ELs had been priced even lower than regprod (the stories about their birth had been discussed on this forum). Regionals were meant as a reasonably priced marketing instrument to attend to the peculiarities of local habits and local brand preferences of the various markets. A speciality, so to speak, for the different distributors that wasn’t priced differently to the rest of the portfolio. Same is/was holding for the LCDH/HS releases. They were very decently priced promo cigars (think RAAS, HURR, Picadores) for the franchises stacked even below the general scheme.

But, true, the recent Linea d‘Oro, the 1935 are new means to select tobacco which you formerly found in regular production and they now request a higher price for. New bling bands and boxes to up the returns with less tobacco while catering to the „collector“. Or the new Trinis, the new Upmanns... - more ring gauge to hide more neutral tobacco into what seems „more cigar for the money“.

As much as, much like you, I personally detest it, it is as it has always been. And the current situation does let such a policy look even more logical. That being said, it is not as if HSA isn’t closely tracking what’s going on in the secondary market. Why let others skim off the cream.... let’s just push the limits...

 

Now, off going back enjoying my JLP...

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5 minutes ago, Greenhorn2 said:

Yeah, fun for some, frustrating for others. There are so many new members here that it's almost impossible to score a box anymore. Glad I stocked up when I did. Prices are crazy now.

Yeah they’re insane! I was paying $230 for boxes a year ago that are going for $330-340. Trinidad did become one of my favorites so I may need to find some cash hidden in the mattress to load up a bit more on em before their prices go up even more. 

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Just now, Kaptain Karl said:

Yeah they’re insane! I was paying $230 for boxes a year ago that are going for $330-340. Trinidad did become one of my favorites so I may need to find some cash hidden in the mattress to load up a bit more on em before they’re prices 

Good luck on your hunt. I've been trying to get some Coloniales for several months to no avail. And you might want to hurry up before the price tag goes double.

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2 minutes ago, Greenhorn2 said:

Good luck on your hunt. I've been trying to get some Coloniales for several months to no avail. And you might want to hurry up before the price tag goes double.

Almost there! We are real close to $300/box Monte4, $400/box RASS,PSD4,BRC, $500/box Monte2, Upmann2, VR Unicos. Seems to be no limit to this nonsense. May as well just price all Cohiba and Trini at a flat $2,000/box for all vitolas. Let's go full on insanity. A recession is right around the corner here in USA, this should be interesting to watch. (bowl of popcorn in hand)

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1 minute ago, SCgarman said:

Almost there! We are real close to $300/box Monte4, $400/box RASS,PSD4,BRC, $500/box Monte2, Upmann2, VR Unicos. Seems to be no limit to this nonsense. May as well just price all Cohiba and Trini at a flat $2,000/box for all vitolas. Let's go full on insanity. A recession is right around the corner here in USA, this should be interesting to watch. (bowl of popcorn in hand)

Yep, I think I gave 399 for my Fundys a year ago. Now you can say 800. Crazy.

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13 minutes ago, Fugu said:

the recent Linea d‘Oro, the 1935 are new means to select tobacco which you formerly found in regular production and now request a higher price for it. New bling bands and boxes to up the returns with less tobacco while catering to the „collector“.

This ☝️… I agree with your assessment… It seems to be the trajectory. Shiny boxes all tarted up, fewer cigars, large gauge with prominent bands. They won’t have to roll as many and hope to still make the same amount of money. It sounds like current production is a basket case and maybe this is the only option at this point in Cuba… Hopefully this will crash and burn and reset down the road, but in the meantime it looks to be a rough ride. I would love to have stocked up in the good old days!

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23 minutes ago, Fugu said:

While I totally get where you are coming from guys, and while I feel very much like you, Ray @PigFishand @Bijan, historically you couldn’t be more off the mark!

Cigars had always been catering to the “luxury” market. Go back in time and check out how they have been branded, how they have been marketed. Go a hundred, a hundred and fifty, go two hundred years back. No working class hero could afford smoking cigars, Havanas that is. Simple folks where chewing or snuffing tobacco, smoking the tobacco pipe, or they smoked cheap(er) stogies made of local tobacco (along the lines of dry cigars of the Dutch/German type or Toscani and the like).

The Cuban handmade - imported - „premium“ cigar had always been a luxury product.

You may be right from time immerial to the Cuban Revolution or maybe WW2.

But during the Habanos/cubatabaco whatever period it wasn't so.

If you look at price lists from 1960s to the 1990s if you could afford monte 4s you could more or less afford any regular production cigar.

CCs weren't a cheap nicotine fix, but they weren't inaccessible.

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5 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Are you sure? People here are gladly paying $1300+ for a box of Esplendidos. Perhaps they buy just to flip them for $2000/box or so. Easy $700+ in profit if you have a buyer(s)

Some people are. There are always a few people here with unlimited funds, and they are rare right now so they sell. But how many boxes would Rob sell at $1,300 if they were in the carts all the time like they were until 2020? Would you buy them at $1,300? I wouldn't. I saw them gather dust at $800 at all the vendors from 2018-2020. Right now, the market is being driven by extreme scarcity.

As far as the Chinese, as I mentioned what "Chinese tourist" has tens of thousands of dollars to buy cigars to flip? And how are they getting back through customs with dozens of boxes each? I believe these are financed operations by the elites. They find or organize these groups and are given the capital and are cleared through customs. The customs issue alone is enough proof that there are elites involved. 

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30 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Some people are. There are always a few people here with unlimited funds, and they are rare right now so they sell. But how many boxes would Rob sell at $1,300 if they were in the carts all the time like they were until 2020? Would you buy them at $1,300? I wouldn't. I saw them gather dust at $800 at all the vendors from 2018-2020. Right now, the market is being driven by extreme scarcity.

You're 100% right. I wouldn't. I bought a box each of esplendidos, siglo VI and lanceros at those 2020 prices and wasn't tempted to get any more, even though I knew prices would likely go even higher.

But Habanos entirely controls supply as the sole producer. If they can make more money selling much fewer cigars at extortionate prices they might just decide to never restore production levels on Cohibas.

Behikes did go crazy and were generally out of supply before the other Cohibas.

Edit: that's to say esplendidos and Siglo VI at $800 for a box of 25 were perpetually in stock and behikes at $1,000+ for a box of 10 were perpetually out of stock.

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36 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Some people are. There are always a few people here with unlimited funds, and they are rare right now so they sell. But how many boxes would Rob sell at $1,300 if they were in the carts all the time like they were until 2020? Would you buy them at $1,300? I wouldn't. I saw them gather dust at $800 at all the vendors from 2018-2020. Right now, the market is being driven by extreme scarcity.

As far as the Chinese, as I mentioned what "Chinese tourist" has tens of thousands of dollars to buy cigars to flip? And how are they getting back through customs with dozens of boxes each? I believe these are financed operations by the elites. They find or organize these groups and are given the capital and are cleared through customs. The customs issue alone is enough proof that there are elites involved. 

Heck, call me cheap. I wouldn't pony up $350/box for Cohiba Robustos back a few years ago. Was more than happy stockpiling boxes of RASS for $189/box. Now look at the price for CORO. 🤪

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