International pricing policy by Habanos SA

[Bijan]

I still think that a lot of the new supply now is not old stuff held over by the vendors. There are one or two vendors that clearly took down stuff (especially Cohiba) a month or two before the hike and that's probably in anticipation of a price increase they knew about ahead of time.

But there are other vendors that had marginal stock in 2020 and 2021 and are now flush in stuff they never had once during the last two years. It's not like they were holding back stock since late 2019 in anticipation.

I think in that case there was latent grey market supply but at prices higher than the market would bear. Once the prices rose that higher priced supply could be moved by those vendors.

For example when monte 2 was $300, grey market vendors couldn't resell a box that cost them $250 or $300, but now that they're $500, they can make a profit there.

Or siglo V boxes sitting around at $1,000 retail and now they can put those up at $1,999.

[mcicvara]

On 6/22/2022 at 10:08 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

 

The good news is I hear PCs, Minutos and Perlas haven't really gone up. And the DCs as well aren't too bad. 

But get this: RyJ Short Churchills now 10% higher than Wide Churchills. 

Where do you see these new prices, in Havana?

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, KnightsAnole said:

I’ve never seen a company face it so dramatically though.

A company doubling prices overnight for "repositioning" purposes isn't something you see every day.

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

There had been rumours and announcements of price hikes seeping in from European distributors as well as PCC as early as February, AFAIR. Even topical here on the forum.

Yes but no one could have imagined them rising to the degree they did. Inflation has been high and supply relatively low so substantial hikes were inevitable but I wasn't seeing anyone suggest anything like what they announced. The discussions were more like will it be 10% or 20%. And no one saw the prices in Cuba coming.

7 hours ago, Bijan said:

I still think that a lot of the new supply now is not old stuff held over by the vendors. There are one or two vendors that clearly took down stuff (especially Cohiba) a month or two before the hike and that's probably in anticipation of a price increase they knew about ahead of time.

But there are other vendors that had marginal stock in 2020 and 2021 and are now flush in stuff they never had once during the last two years. It's not like they were holding back stock since late 2019 in anticipation.

The vendors that pulled stock completely did so in Apr after the formal announcement. Some literally removing Cohiba & Trini from their droplists. Many had stock and pulled it, so it's stock they received prior to Apr. 

Maybe they did start hoarding back in Feb just based on rumors of what was going to be at least an inflation hike and when the Apr announcement came they just slammed the door shut. Of course we know distributors were still moving small amounts of Cohiba and Trini in the retail markets so the total disappearance of Cohiba & Trini was not a shortage from HSA. And everything else was pretty available until March at almost all vendors. Looking at my past orders I was finding plenty of stock in late Feb early Mar. 

So they may have just picked up some of this stuff from Feb-Jun like Lanceros and Siglo V & VI but there's no doubt they had CoRo and Esplendidos and CCE the whole time. 

3 hours ago, mcicvara said:

Where do you see these new prices, in Havana?

Yes. Some new price info is being relayed to me.

[LordAnubis]

Yeah except i have not seen any vendor selling lots of available cohibas. Most sites still dont have Cohiba on them at all. So i dont think it's some conspiracy. I think the grey market has become much tougher to source for (for the grey market vendors) as before distributors had more stock than they could sell, so offloading some at 80% of the price was a good deal. Now you can offload anything at full retail plus markup almost instantly, so why sell at discount to a grey market vendor.

[El Presidente]

Each market is different. Some are untouched or have actually benefitted from all of this. Others are still in a state of shock. 

Distributors who do sell to grey Market fall into two categories. Those that rely on grey market for volume and those that don't. Even those that do have a base level of domestic need. That takes up the majority of their allocation right now. 

Regardless of what you read, there are no rivers of premium Cohiba and DC flowing into distributors since the price increase. There is an increase in HSA volume in June estimated 7% from what we can see. 

Now maybe next month that all changes and distributors are flooded with goodies. I will let you know at the first sign that is happening. I wouldn't be holding my breath because as of right now, it's not. 

 

[mcicvara]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

Yes. Some new price info is being relayed to me.

Prices at Cayo Coco airport still unchanged, stock is not bad. Some Vigias and Siglo II.

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, mcicvara said:

Prices at Cayo Coco airport still unchanged, stock is not bad. Some Vigias and Siglo II.

I don't know if the new prices are actually in effect, i.e. stickers changed. I am being told official proposed prices. I assumed prices were being gradually changed this last week.

Also did you actually buy anything at Cayo Coco? Sometimes they are lazy and the price at the register differs from the stickers.

 

7 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Yeah except i have not seen any vendor selling lots of available cohibas

Then you're not looking. At least three well respected, popular, trusted vendors have a full selection of Cohiba and Trini.

7 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Now you can offload anything at full retail plus markup almost instantly,

The fact that only about half the trusted vendors have any product supports my theory that all gray market stock you see was hoarded between Feb-Jun. As Rob points out distributors have been on fumes meaning very little for the gray markets (or anyone).

Vendors will be resupplied in the next few months. Mostly the distributors' domestic retailers and maybe a little gray market. But after none of that sells (and gray markets are going to have a hell of a time since they no longer have much of a duty free price advantage) the distributors aren't going to want any more product. 

I honestly don't know how the gray market can survive this. Their only purpose is going to be supplying the US and with the price hike I don't know if that's enough. They're going to get very little supply over the coming months and when what they've hoarded is gone (after having to drop prices just to move it for cash flow) they'll have nothing to sell coupled with generally and relatively high prices as duty free has been virtually eliminated.

[MrBirdman]

On 6/26/2022 at 8:56 PM, El Presidente said:

Now maybe next month that all changes and distributors are flooded with goodies.

I can't imagine Cuba was holding back stock in meaningful amounts - they are too desperate for cash and their distributors too desperate for stock. To me the big question is whether they're prepared to reduce Cohina or Trini production to meet demand over the next year or two. This plan can't succeed if they don't - whales can only smoke so many cigars.

[jakebarnes]

28 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

I can't imagine Cuba was holding back stock in meaningful amounts - they are too desperate for cash and their distributors too desperate for stock. To me the big question is whether they're prepared to reduce Cohina or Trini production to meet demand over the next year or two. This plan can't succeed if they don't - whales can only smoke so many cigars.

Ah, but the whales collect ad infinitum. See also, Bourbon (where most people collect and never drink)

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, jakebarnes said:

Ah, but the whales collect ad infinitum. See also, Bourbon (where most people collect and never drink)

That's partly due to the huge diversity and relative scarcity of many of the offerings. It's one thing to collect 400 different types of bourbon, it's another to just pile up 80 boxes of 5 different Cohiba unless the person is a compulsive hoarder. I'm sure they exist but that's a niche segment of an already small group. 

Also, I can go through a bottle of liquor a hell of lot faster than a box of cigars. And they're a hell of a lot easier to store.

[jakebarnes]

Just now, MrBirdman said:

That's partly due to the huge diversity and relative scarcity of many of the offerings. It's one thing to collect 400 different types of bourbon, it's another to just pile up 80 boxes of 5 different Cohiba unless the person is just a compulsive hoarder.

Also, I can go through a bottle of liquor a hell of lot faster than a box of cigars. 

I mean...there are a lot of people that own 20 bottles of Blantons, 10+ bottles of each BTAC, etc

[dangolf18]

I need a break from reading every new post on this thread . What will be will be. For people looking for stock at old prices, it’s basically game over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrBirdman]

On 6/27/2022 at 11:08 PM, jakebarnes said:

I mean...there are a lot of people that own 20 bottles of Blantons, 10+ bottles of each BTAC, etc

Sure, and I'm sure many cigar whales will stock up to 20 boxes of their favored smokes. But few truly have no saturation point. 

On another note, the situation with Blanton's is insane these days. I am old enough to remember most of these bourbons being routinely stocked and priced cheaper than typical scotch. And half of them weren't worth the $40-50 they wanted 15 years ago. Fortunately for me I lost interest in bourbon around the time it started taking off. 

[jakebarnes]

1 minute ago, MrBirdman said:

Sure, and I'm sure many cigar whales will stock up to 20 boxes of their favored smokes. But few truly have no saturation point. 

On another note, the situation with Blanton's is insane these days. I am old enough to remember most of these bourbons being routinely stocked and priced cheaper than typical scotch. And half of them weren't worth the $40-50 they wanted in 15-20 years ago. Fortunately for me I lost interest in bourbon around the time it started taking off. 

100% agree how dumb it is. I miss Elijah 12 for $20 at Costco. 

[vladdraq]

later posts are refreshing , blaming price "communist", is just utterly not knowing what communism is all about. 

[mcicvara]

On 6/26/2022 at 10:08 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't know if the new prices are actually in effect, i.e. stickers changed. I am being told official proposed prices. I assumed prices were being gradually changed this last week.

Also did you actually buy anything at Cayo Coco? Sometimes they are lazy and the price at the register differs from the stickers.

 

Yes, got couple of boxes and lots of singles, all prices exactly the same as YUL list.

Didn't buy anything at the duty free shop at the airport, but people were buying like crazy and the prices were clearly displayed. Just a bit above YUL.

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, Heels82 said:

Siglo V popped up twice at the same vendor in March of '21 for $750 or so (luckily grabbed a box) and then again a few months later for an hour for $895 or so.  The real steal was MDO4 at $174 a box in the early hours of June '21.  

I remember that. I think I just missed it that day!

If that's the one you mean, I meant a much more marginal vendor than that guy (especially in terms of Cohiba sales).

Edit: without being explicit it's one of those vendors that never removes a vitola from his list (even after they're discontinued).

[Chas.Alpha]

"Marginal vendor." Hmmm, I don't think I'm trading cigars with you anymore...😳

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, Chas.Alpha said:

"Marginal vendor." Hmmm, I don't think I'm trading cigars with you anymore...😳

I used them twice. I think I got a total of 4 boxes: RGPC, 2x R&J Sports Largos and R&J PC. That's the sort of stuff they have. No fancy hard to find cigars. And I don't think they've had good supply in a long time.

There's another similar vendor (a bit less niche) that has 2 box deals on Party shorts and minutos and PCs all the time, they also have a steady supply of CoRos at the same price as everyone else for the first time in a long while.

[Chas.Alpha]

I'm going right back to it. Is your vendor listed as an authorized HSA retailer? if not, why? It's one of the main reasons I became an FOH. "I saved $30 dollars, but the barcode is scratched off" never gave me comfort...

[Bijan]

22 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I'm going right back to it. Is your vendor listed as an authorized HSA retailer? if not, why? It's one of the main reasons I became an FOH. "I saved $30 dollars, but the barcode is scratched off" never gave me comfort...

I bought and buy the majority of my stuff on FOH. But FOH are practically the only authorized retailer you can buy from on the internet (or the only one who doesn't deal with scratched serials and doesn't pay local taxes and charge twice the price). But FOH don't always have all the cigars I may want. If I could I'd buy from HSA authorized retailers.

 

22 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

"I saved $30 dollars, but the barcode is scratched off" never gave me comfort...

The barcode is scratched off because the cigars were meant to be sold in Spain, but ended being sold from Switzerland without Habanos ok'ing it (for example).

Not because they fell off the back of a truck.

And $30 on a 25-count of Party Shorts used to be a lot.

If we're going to go there, neither of us is following the laws of our respective countries. CCs are illegal in the US, and there are a boatload of taxes to be paid on cigars in Canada. It is what it is.

A couple of decades ago CCs from some vendors would come in unbanded and the vendor would send the bands in a separate shipment or not at all.

FOH are the best in quality control, and the best in customer support. Rob actually cares about his customers. That is rare and I was always willing to pay a premium for that over the other guys (and nowadays it's not much of a premium if at all). But I could care less if he has some stamp of approval from Habanos/HSA.

 

23 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

"Marginal vendor." Hmmm, I don't think I'm trading cigars with you anymore...😳

If this is an actual concern, the list of my boxes, has a column for the vendor, the date, etc. for each box I have.

[SCgarman]

18 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I'm going right back to it. Is your vendor listed as an authorized HSA retailer? if not, why? It's one of the main reasons I became an FOH. "I saved $30 dollars, but the barcode is scratched off" never gave me comfort...

Barcodes and micro serials scratched off are not a sign of nefarious activity. It is merely a safeguard so the regional distributor can't be traced selling boxes  in another region. They are as genuine as any box sold on this site. This is assuming your vendor is of course legit and not one of the suppliers knowingly selling fakes. You should do your internet homework to identify the good from the bad. 

[NSXCIGAR]

19 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I'm going right back to it. Is your vendor listed as an authorized HSA retailer? if not, why? It's one of the main reasons I became an FOH. "I saved $30 dollars, but the barcode is scratched off" never gave me comfort...

Are you calling into question the entire gray market?

[Chas.Alpha]

18 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Are you calling into question the entire gray market?

From your point of view, or mine? You may certainly feel comfortable receiving boxes of unknown provenance. I for one enjoy knowing when and where they came from.

[El Presidente]

23 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Barcodes and micro serials scratched off are not a sign of nefarious activity.

This is increasingly going to be an issue. 

I would like to see them regardless of the vendor for Cohiba.